(1973) — Joe Frazier vs Kenny Norton

Do you venture beyond Boxrec before making such half baked statements? Do your homework before making simplistic answers as if it all takes place in a vacume.

 

lol “half baked statements” what was the issue with what I said? It’s true, it’s a fact that he lost to a novice Dokes to Ossie Occasio x2 (the feather fist?) and his loss to Norton is both debated and been discussed as SUSPECT for a long time… all of this happened within 2 years of his zenith… was he in the best shape for those fights? Well (to check the evil boxrec for exact weights…) he was 215lbs for the rematch and 220 the first time… 213 for Foreman he was a big meal away from the rematch weight and barely above his best weight the first time whilst against Dokes he was 229lbs and a hog… a hog 2 years within his greatest achievement still in his prime. Nortons best win is Ali when he showed up out of shape no longer any fun anymore?then comes his second best win a version of Jimmy Young (prime) who lost to Occasio…

 

Norton beat Young when he was on a red hot streak of form and he beat Young the same year he'd beaten Foreman.

Young was overweight vs Ocasio and under estimated him. They had a rematch that was super close but again Ocasio had a very awkward style so his style and Young's defensive style kind of cancelled each other out.

Young also had a steep decline in the late 70s and heading into the 80s where he basically turned into a gatekeeper. And he was not the fighter he was between 1974-1977 which was his peak years where he'd beaten Lyle x2, drew with Shavers, beat Foreman. And only had 2 losses during that period which were highly disputed decisions vs Ali, Norton, hence he was competing at a high level during that period.

 

Joe Frazier wins this, in my book, by decision or late stoppage.

 

Here's what's true ... if you followed Young you knew he was an up and down fighter based on emotion ... after the Norton loss he went down hill spilling out of shape and uninspired against Occasio twice and then fell into opponent status from that point on ... the prime Young was Ali to Norton. That's the gage when rating him so when you mention Dokes and the other losses that came they need to be factored and it's not just weight its focus and condition. Norton beat the best Young far more decisively than Ali or Foreman or Lyle.

As far as the Norton -Ali fights they speak for themselves ... the first fight was all Norton, the second fight he dominated the entire second half of the fight and Ali pitter patted the last minute in the 12th to get a sentimental decision and the third was absurd with the overwhelming number of newspaper reporters saying Norton was robbed. George Foreman was famous for saying he didn't think Ali beat Kenny Norton even once.

Your points are like someone reading the boxscores without ever watching the game.

 

I believe it’s been said that Joe Frazier got the better of Ken Norton in sparring on a fairly regular basis. But I don’t have a source to confirm this. But judging on their styles, Joe’s aggressive swarming stance appears to be the type of approach that would force Norton to fight off the back foot where he was least comfortable. I’m sure it would be a competitive match but on the surface I have to favor Joe Frazier

 

Norton only beat an out of shape Ali and debatably (according to those at ringside) he may have also beat him when he was post Manila (I think Norton did)…when it mattered most in the 2nd fight he lost - What sort of great buzz saw of boxers only debatably beats a SHOT Muhammad Ali and Jimmy Young? He was a good fighter but remains hilariously overrated. George Foreman is famous for saying a lot and mostly nonsense I don’t pay him too much mind, with respect, that’s not even an unpopular opinion lol. I actually am winding you up a bit about Jimmy I already made an admission the guy blew up in weight right after losing to Ocasio (showing up 215lbs in his prime still ) he was very good Ol Jim with respect to him but nothing special he’s the origin of the rightfully dead slogan “70s contenders could be champions in another era” Back to what I was saying about Norton topical to Young the talk of the time on the scene and those in the gyms etc was that the fix was in, in Young vs Norton notice how he abandoned his body punching? He fought to lose and some people still think he beat Norton but discard this I don’t have a ring mag to source for you Mr Historian.

 

Anything close to prime Frazier, he wins easily and quickly because he WILL back Norton up, which always discombobulated Norton, and he hits way too hard for Norton.

 

Hold the phone.
Jimmy Young still had enough left after losing to Cooney to win the Ring Magazine Comeback Fighter of the Year for 1981. He was still a top 10 heavyweight.

Its hard to keep a good man down.

 

I did not know that what did he do to get that? I’m too drunk to boxrec it.

 

I read all of the previous replies, and all have merit and good insight. However, I think the question about a potential fight between Ken Norton and Joe Frazier in 1973 should center on the best possible Frazier in 1973 and not the Frazier who showed up to his fight with George Foreman unmotivated, overweight, and out of shape. Put another way, the question should center on whether a properly trained and motivated Joe Frazier in 1973 still had the skill set to defeat 1973 Ken Norton. I do agree that the 1973 version of Joe Frazier was slower and had less skills than 1971 prime Joe Frazier, and that Joe Frazier was never the same fighter after his epic clash with Muhammad Ali on March 8, 1971. However, I do not believe that his showing against George Foreman in January of 1973 completely undermines his fighting skills at that point. Joe Frazier did not necessarily lose to George Foreman because of a steep decline but primarily because George Foreman was stronger than and a stylistic nightmare for Joe Frazier. Joe Frazier lacked versatility in the ring and could not back up and/or alter his style so when he was fighting a bigger and stronger opponent who also never backed up, the result was inevitable, and the same result would have occurred even if George Foreman fought the 1971 prime Joe Frazier. On this note, Joe Frazier's subsequent contests against Muhammad Ali in 1974 and 1975 reflect that Joe Frazier still had a lot left in the tank in 1973 and would prove dangerous for any fighter except George Foreman if he was properly trained. As for the fight, Joe Frazier was stronger than Ken Norton and more ferocious than Ken Norton. He had already faced fighters with similar punching power such as Oscar Bonavena and Jerry Quarry and while he was knocked down twice by Bonavena, he got up both times to convincingly win these fights. Therefore, while he could not contend with Goerge Foreman type punching power, he could certainly content with Ken Norton's punching power. In his own right, Ken Norton was certainly a skilled fighter with good punching power, but he lacked the ferocity and strength of Joe Frazier. In addition, while Ken Norton could sporadically back up in the ring, his main style was going forward in the ring, which would have spelled trouble for him if he collided with the stronger Frazier. Therefore, if a properly trained Joe Frazier faced Ken Norton in 1973, I would put my money on Smokin Joe to win by Knockout or TKO anywhere from round 7-11.

 

The Frazier of 1974 that beat Quarry would have beaten any version of Ken Norton.

 

If we're talking about the versions of Frazier from the first Foreman fight (Jan '73) and Norton from the first Ali fight (Mar '73), it’s a tough but answerable call.

Frazier’s resume up to that point was stronger—undefeated for years, Olympic gold medallist, and the man who beat Ali in his prime. Norton had just broken through by giving Ali serious trouble and winning controversially on the cards, but his overall achievements were still behind Frazier’s.

Stylistically, though, Norton might give Frazier issues. He handled forward pressure well, had a solid jab, and a high, awkward guard that could smother hooks. But the problem is Frazier’s pressure and pace were far more intense than Ali’s. Norton didn’t handle heavy hitters too well, and Frazier's left hook was a real threat. On the other hand, Frazier himself was on the slide post-Ali '71 and took huge punishment in the process. By the time of the Foreman fight, his reflexes and durability were clearly declining.

I’d still edge it to Frazier by late stoppage. More proven at the elite level, slightly better engine, and more dogged under pressure. Norton might make it ugly and competitive, but he was too susceptible to left hooks and inside pressure to hold Frazier off consistently. Not a blowout, but Frazier wins more rounds or breaks him down late.

 

Ken would deal out a lot punishment to Joe in the early going with his jab and overhand rights,building up a substantial points lead but Frazier's pressure would start to tell around the sixth round culminating in a stoppage in the latter stages

A hard earned victory for Smokin' Joe Frazier.

 

Before he lost the title to Foreman I would have picked Frazier but after being destroyed by Big George he was never the same and I believe Norton would have edged him a in a close fight in 1973.