Larry Holmes (1978) V Joe Frazier (1971)?

Stupid as it sounds, Holmes looks like a redesign of Ali following the FOTC to deal with Frazier.

The leaning back against the left hook is gone. The jab has more stopping power. He's rougher on the inside than the earlier edition of Ali, and he has a good uppercut now. The wrestling and framing that people praise Foreman for using against Joe is also in Holmes's toolbox.

This isn't to say that Holmes was the ideal fighter to beat Frazier. Just that many of the changes made to the Ali template seem helpful to deal with someone like Frazier.

 

Holmes isn't going to handle Frazier's body work nearly as well as Ali, it's going to dull down a lot of what Holmes might have going for him, jab is going to slow down and lose power when the legs start to feel it, Holmes never had legs conditioned like Ali

 

I know people say Holmes hit harder but it is marginal at best. I think when he planted his feet Ali was a better puncher than Larry. I concede Larry Holmes utilized his jab better than 70s Ali in general. He didnt quite have Ali's physical gifts though was closer than anybody else.

I could be wrong. What fights did Larry show superior power to Ali? Who did he stop?

 

Norton would be the main one his punches effected Norton more then Ali ever did

 

Holmes was the "B" side in the fight, nobody knew who he was, Norton had been in movies and had fought Ali 3 times, the boxing establishment wanted him to win. Also, Holmes had a torn bicep. The bicep injury probably affected his range of motion and his power in the hand. IMO, Holmes still won about 10-5 in rounds over Norton. I never thought Ali beat Norton, Holmes beat Norton with an injury that probably should have postponed the fight.

 

As great as Holmes was, and he was great, 1971 Frazier was an absolutely relentless hard-hitting nonstop crisp-punching unstoppable force. The fast attack, head movement, quick hooks and body blows, and the constant onslaught, all would have been too much for Holmes. If Larry thought Ken Norton was rough and tough, Frazier was that much and more.

 

Man two of my favorites what a match up.
Frazier would be going up against a jab that he has never encountered before and Larry against pressure and work rate he hasn't seen before.
I would say Frazier by split decision in a bout that fans would argue about who really won forever.
I think Holmes would get off to a quick start but then after 5 rounds Frazier gets going.
If this was a 12 round fight I would pick Holmes by close decision.

 

If it’s FOTC Frazier, he wins.

However, I have often pointed out that part of the recipe for getting FOTC was his hatred for Ali, which he would not have against Holmes.

One off fight for the marbles, I pick Frazier; I don’t think he bats 1.000 in an extended series with Holmes.

 

Wow, what a fight. I have Holmes. It would be wafer thin close and I love both fighters so I'm taking a draw and a win each in a trilogy. I think Holmes chin is well known but his simple will and toughness are underrated by many. If he can fight his fight he can win enough rounds to edge a decision, but he won't keep Joe off for 15 and will have some real discomfort. I think his wrestling, his inside game and his own 'dirty boxing' matches well with Joe.

 

Holmes didn’t have more power in his right. What he had was a lack of hand problems. Pre-exile Ali, or some lucky post-exile Ali fights where Ali didn’t have hand issues, you could see he could crack.

What Holmes definitely had was more power in his left. Especially his jab. Earnie Shavers wrote about this in his book. He said he rated their jab effectiveness as about equal, but that Larry’s jab felt like a right hand every time he landed it flush while Ali’s just felt like a normal jab. He said Holmes was hurting him so much with the jab it was making him flinch when he saw it coming. (By the way, I highly recommend Shavers’s book, it’s a quick read, and he’s not one of those guys who puffs themself up, his book reads as a pure honest assessment of his life and career).

anyway, as to the thread topic, three thoughts. First, FOTC Frazier would stomp Holmes (FOTC Frazier straight up whooped Ali, mind you). Second, FOTC Frazier would not exist if he was fighting Holmes, because Holmes would never say or do the **** that Ali did that made Frazier train and fight like that. Third, Holmes worked for Frazier as an Ali impersonator for the Thrilla, and it made such an impression on Holmes that you’ll never see a single instance of Holmes saying he thought he could have beaten Frazier. In his own book, Holmes said Frazier would knock him down in sparring, hurt him bad, etc. During his peak, there’s an interview where Holmes was asked how a fighter could beat him, and his answer was “Turn into Joe Frazier”. Point being, Holmes didn’t think he could beat Frazier. Not even when he was champ and most full of himself. So why would I think he could do it?

 

Wow, thanks for this. Really makes you think!!