Are there any reports of "spies" in other boxing camps during history?

Futch and Holmes had one in Witherspoons camp. It didn't do much for them as Holmes didn't hook off the jab.

 

Would it really make that much of a difference?

 

I remember tales of Ali showing up and an opponent’s training (Foreman maybe?) and ‘sneaking’ acting like he’s trying to not be seen as a publicity stunt or maybe just to amuse himself, like positioning himself behind some kind of support column in the gym or a heavy bag or whatever and peering around it as if everyone in the gym couldn’t plainly see it was him, haha. It was a playful gag rather than spying, and a pretty good one I think.

Ray Leonard’s side sent JD Brown to observe Marvin Hagler’s workouts to see what he was working on. This has been admitted by Ray’s side.

I don’t see how it’s spying to attend public workouts. I mean, they’re open to everyone. If you want to work on things away from prying eyes, you don’t invite (or charge) any Tom, Dick and Harry to come watch you work out. Or you do a light ‘public’ workout and then reconvene (maybe somewhere else) in a closed gym setting to work on the ‘secret’ game plan stuff.

There was also an instance where a Boston newspaper photographer sneaking a camera I think into the rafters to get shots of Marvin training. When the photos were published, Hagler’s team went ballistic because they were convinced it was Leonard’s people who were doing it, but it turned out to be an enterprising photojournalist trying to beat his competitors by getting shots they couldn’t get.

 

Leonard-Hagler

https://grantland.com/features/hagler-vs-leonard/



Brown: One night I got a call from Mike. He told me to come to Ray’s room, and they told me they wanted me to go spy on Hagler for a couple days. I disguised myself — my hair was black, so I dyed it gray. I put these horn-rimmed glasses on. And I went and sat in the back and watched him train for three days. I picked up a few things. He wanted to be in the center of the ring for all the sparring sessions; when a round would start and the guy would come out of the other corner, he’d be standing in the middle, waiting for him. And he got mad at his sparring partners, the Weaver triplets, because they weren’t fighting him. They were boxing him. They were hitting him, moving, and he’s like, “Come on, stop moving. Fight me, you little *****!”

Samuels: The Weaver triplets had a lot of energy. That’s why they were brought in, to get Marvin ready to deal with Leonard. And they did pose some problems. That’s what they were supposed to do.

Carlino: I remember when J.D. Brown showed up. He was roaming around and I recognized him, but the Petronellis didn’t know who he was. I didn’t say anything to anyone because I didn’t think it mattered. I figured there wasn’t anything he could learn from watching public workouts.

Leonard: I said to J.D., “You show me that you were there by taking a picture with him to document it.”

Brown: At the end of his training sessions, Hagler would sign autographs and take pictures. So I took a little camera up there, I put my arm around him, somebody took the picture, and I left. I came back and reported what I saw to Ray, and he put it to good use.

 

One of the best ways thru that particular defense is hooking off the jab with a short cadence, for obvious reasons. Being able to do it is another thing. Holmes wasn't one for throwing left hooks, much. Holmes throwing more left hooks would have made it interesting, particularly behind a one two. He had good hand speed. It's hard to say what exact difference it brings. Perhaps Holmes lands some good left hooks and takes a bit of confidence out of Timmy while nabbing a couple of extra rounds.

 

The practice is as old as the sport.

If you don't do it in an important fight today, then you are basically an idiot.

 

‘Tis to me a silly thing to say sending someone to watch a public workout is spying.

 

It depends on if it's just recon in publicly available settings or more like betrayal of someone hired to operate in private prep and reporting back? There's definitely been allegations hurled at someone being not just an informant on private prep but available for sabotage work. They played with a narrative about Dempsey's guy giving him "poison" in olive oil meant to function as a laxative for Tunney's camp, like he was telling them Dempsey takes it regularly and they said great, dose it with something extra for the match.

 

Possibly Liston at his most surly in this IV prior to the Ali rematch but he still drops in a few classic, less is more, Sonny zingers.

Kudos to the interviewer for doing his job without fear or favour, lol.

Liston making references to sparring partners spying on him in camp: -

Go to 2:12 and 3:54

This content is protected

 

If you look at the fight, Ray made it a point to get to ring center before Marvin. Subtle psychological ploy — Marvin wanted to occupy the center ring at the start of each round, so Leonard took it away from him.

That ploy had to come directly from Brown’s “spying” on Marvin’s camp.

And Hagler tipped his hand in those sparring rounds that Marvin would lose his composure if his sparring partners moved and didn’t engage him, so that came into play too. I’m sure it didn’t really alter Ray’s game plan, but it had to have been reassuring to know that Marvin was flustered by moving in camp.

 

I think Holmes and Futch (?) would implement as obvious a solution. A tad of an off-topic monologue John, so feel free to ignore it.

Witherspoon's crossguard was strongly mixed with head-movement, elbow flips, a Philly shell as he calls it nowadays, and a high-guard should he find himself in need, much like Kenny used the high-guard after engaging on Jimmy Young, knowing a failed offence will result in Jimmy escaping at an angle and slapping at the top of his exposed skull to score points (usually a fighter aiming at the top of a crossguard user head is a poor idea, because they have very elusive upper-body movement and if you miss the top of the head, you miss by a mile, on top of not being very damaging unless you are Earnie Shavers or Artur Beterbiev.) The high-guard part is what allowed me completely shut down my leftie sparring partner who operated in that Young-like manner of making you miss or spoiling and then peppering eye-catching slaps. Once up close, crossguard needs to bob and weave or engage inside because all those looping punches are going to get through. The closer you are with those folded arms, the more you need to start shortening your height, bending at the waist, or preferably weave, through naturally somebody like Foreman fighting a shorter opponent could fight tall out of the crossguard, knowing somebody like Quawi or Cooper won't really loop around the elbows with their stature.

Hooking off the jab can get through but majority of the time unless you really read him well, it's going to get elbow flipped, he is going to 'hold the phone' if moving backwards, sink further into onto his back leg, or dip forward or inside (Foreman's go-to head movement was that slight dip forward combined with frames or a smother to stop following uppercuts, or fold into the crossguard later into his career.) George in general is a great case study in how supposedly 'exposed' areas (his extended read-hand in this case) are often the most protected, as especially in the opening rounds Foreman was ready to duck down at any all too obvious attempt at stopping him from taking away the jab. A help from Archie Moore and Sandy Saddler I reckon, both of whom fought over three hundred bouts in that manner.

In general though you could get past it with that combination, though more commonly somebody using the high guard would get nailed by such sequence more often than a crossguard user I reckon, especially Timmy who was really well-schooled defensively. You jab at those folded wings, he is more focused on what comes next, because that jab normally ain't getting past.

 

It was actually Futch's request. Futch was the actual spy, albeit maybe thinly disguised hahahaha

Holmes, the master of the counter-punch, has as his trainer Eddie Futch, the master of the counter strategy. One afternoon Futch slipped into the gym where Witherspoon was working. Within a few moments he had seen all he needed to know. He reported back to Holmes: "He's working on stopping your jab and your right hand. He looks like Archie Moore: His right arm is up and jack-knifed across his face, and he'll pick off your jab with his right glove. You're going to have to use your hook. As soon as your jab touches his glove, turn the hook over. The whole side of his head will be open."

 

Wow, that is a fantastic quote. I stand corrected. Always a delight to see Futch's insight into the game, especially making the instant connection to Archie, while Dundee (?) or some other commentator somehow mentioned Robinson in regard to Timmy's style. Futch himself trained Norton and Frazier in the art of the crab, so he had an almost demiurge-like authority here.

 

Yeah, i always loved this quote. This is part of the reason Holmes and Ali had extra trouble with Norton - they underutilized the left hook comparative to others.

I enjoyed the rest of your post, i love a well constructed deep dive mate!!!!!