Andy Ruiz Jnr vs Ken Norton (12)

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A few quick points:

1) I am very happy that you made a long, detailed post explaining your position with citations to film, analysis, and written sources. People don't do that very much. Kudos.

2) Foreman in your highlights clip is doing what he does against a journeyman / gatekeeper. Who doesn't seem to have the power or range AJ did. I also note that Foreman is still playing the handfighting game against a taller opponent there. He moves his head sometimes in the short clips, but he's not really consistent with it. Whether he could do that to a fighter like Joshua, who spent a lot of his time beating up and keeping smaller opponents at his preferred range, and was at one point one of the top 2-3 heavyweights in the world, is an open question.

3) You say that Young Foreman wouldn't have been outboxed by, e.g., Morrison, and you're probably right, based on film. But he also wouldn't have absorbed the kinds of punches Old Foreman did against the likes of Morrison and Briggs, either. So you takes your choice and pays your prices.

4) I believe your quote supports the point I'm making:

Foreman abandoned the skills he was developing at the beginning of his career. His trainer cut corners in teaching Foreman basics. He also wasn't training those skills like he should've: his trainer was sending him off to run (not even as much as he did as an old man, according to Foreman's later interview) and whack the heavy bag.

And as a result, that's how Foreman fought during the Rumble. He fought like a boxer who'd been allowed to abandon his skills, whose trainer had cut corners teaching him the basics, and who spent too much of his time running and whacking the heavy bag. And he fought like he'd trained.

You'd have to explain why that version of Foreman -- the guy who abandons his skills, whose trainer cuts corners on the basics, and who is absolutely convinced no man can stand against him -- would change his approach for AJ. Why would he? He'd probably agree with you that AJ is a minimal threat that he can bulldoze over. And then walk into something and get stopped.

 

Based on Lyle ? Holyfield wobbled Foreman badly. And in the 70s all other times he was dropped was when when he was exhausted, he was more measured older, but the physical decline outweighs.

Do i ? He can still cut the ring, jab, get on his toes to reset the pace, make his opponents tentative and bang them out with deceptive speed and timing, Foreman never lost that in his first career. He can literally fight aj the same way he fought Lyle, Ali, and knock joshy boy out. joshua had his work cut out for him against Whyte..... Both of them can hurt eachother, but only 1 has been knocked out twice, only one of these boxers has the bigger weakness against pressure and powerpunchers. aj has also been dropped 3x as much, and Foreman kept going at it with Lyle despite being hurt, and knocked him out. Joshua needs a timeout when hurt. He is vulnerable when pushed back, his footing and boxing brain fall apart the moment he gets hurt. joshua got wiped by Dubois's jab in every single round and didn't have an ounce of success besides the 5th, and that tiny instance got him knocked out because he lacks IQ and fighting instinct. Dubois has NEVER looked that good before and has been stopped twice, almost by Lerena too. You seem to be under the assumption Ron Lyle wouldn't have a good chance of KO'ing aj; he absolutely does. Ron Lyle is more skilled than Dillian Whyte objectively, and aj never fought Chisora of all people, which lets you know something

And then there's Ruiz, who couldn't convincingly beat an ancient Ortiz ? Same Ruiz who got dropped by a 40 year old Arreola and was forced to box on his toes the rest of the fight, aj never did that to Ruiz, but anyone semi complete fighter in their prime can outbox him, like Norton. Notice how Ruiz hasn't beaten any ranked opponents apart from aj....no I'm not joking, and Norton beats Parker too. He is chinny but neither of them are heavy hitters so the odds are he would go 12