Could Sonny Liston have made it undefeated vs Louis title defenses?

Agreed.If

Agreed.If you cannot see that blinding hand speed,extreme foot speed and amazing punch accuracy would have enabled Ali to defeat any other heavyweight in history perhaps we should
end this discussion.
No wait,how about you giving your technical expertise on why these guys would have beaten Ali.? Take your time,I'm in no hurry.

 

Watch the fight ? You should take your own advice.

 

Called it. Absolutely, predictably, called it.

Why learn the technical nuances of boxing when you can just scream "muh speed!" and pretend you've made a profound point? It's the most tiresome, surface-level analysis in all of boxing debate. Let's move past the superlatives and have a real, technical discussion. I'll lay it out for you.

Muhammad Ali's single greatest defensive flaw was his vulnerability to a disciplined, consistent jab. His entire defensive system was built on pulling back from the waist and relying on reflexes, a style that is fundamentally susceptible to a fighter who simply sticks a piston jab in his face. A good jab disrupts rhythm, controls distance, and neutralizes speed. If you can't get into range, your speed is useless.

Need proof? Let's correct the historical record while we're at it.

• Henry Cooper: Don't get it twisted; Cooper wasn't just a lucky punch. He had tremendous success in both fights. He famously knocked Ali down in the first and was consistently tagging him. In the second fight, he was arguably ahead on the cards before the stoppage on a cut. The point is, a fighter who could get past Ali's jab could consistently hurt him.
• Ken Norton: A good, but not great, fighter who gave Ali a career's worth of trouble by executing a simple game plan: a persistent, awkward, educated jab and pressure

Now, let's apply that fundamental lesson to the fighters I mentioned all of whom were far superior to Norton or Cooper.

• Joe Louis: Here's a history lesson for you. In an article titled "How I Would Beat Ali," Joe Louis himself laid out the exact blueprint that Ken Norton later used: jab to the body, jab to the head, pressure him, and keep him off balance. Louis literally invented the strategy. Now, if Norton, a good but never great fighter, could execute that plan well enough to break Ali's jaw and arguably win all three fights, what do you think an all-time great like Louis, the master of that style, would do? It wouldn't be competitive.
• Larry Holmes: Had arguably the single greatest left jab in the history of the heavyweight division, Period and overall was a much more technical version of a similar fighting style as Ali just without the athleticism. He would have systematically dismantled Ali from the outside and Ali wouldn't be able to do anything
• Lennox Lewis, Wladimir & Vitali Klitschko: I'll group these giants together. All stand 6'5" to 6'7" with massive reach advantages. Their jabs were battering rams. Ali's lean-back defense would have been a catastrophic failure against fighters this tall he'd be leaning back directly into the path of their right hands with no way to counter. It's a simple matter of physics and he's never shown the ability to fight well on the front foot to pressure them so I really don't see how he beats any of them.
• Oleksandr Usyk: This is a stylistic nightmare for Ali. Here's why: Ali never fought a truly elite southpaw. The only decent one he faced, Karl Mildenberger, gave him fits. Usyk is on another plane entirely. In an orthodox vs. southpaw matchup, the lead-hand battle is crucial. Usyk's jab would neutralize Ali's jab, taking away his primary weapon. Worse, Usyk's straight left and right hook would be coming from angles Ali was strategically and historically unprepared for. Add to that Usyk's own near-comparable foot and hand speed, and you have a recipe for Ali being systematically out-pointed and caught with clean shots he never saw coming.

So, there's your technical expertise, sharpened for accuracy. A list of fighters who had the specific tool (a dominant jab), the physical attributes (height/reach), or the stylistic advantage (elite southpaw) to exploit Ali's most glaring technical flaw.

I now await your well-crafted technical rebuttal that isn't just "but... but... he was really, really fast!" Take your time.

 

And when Louis blasted Max Schmeling out in 1 round, Louis also show amazing hand speed and punching accuracy. It was like Louis could not miss in that fight. Yeah Louis was never fast on his feet, but he was fast in hand speed and power. Louis was perfect that day.

 

LOL the sad thing is someone would definitely make that argument...........

 

Good post,but how do you account for Terrell's lack of success with the jab against Ali?

 

What chances do you give Holyfield Bowe and Tyson Fury against Ali?

 

I watched it when it happened.
Machen defeated10 top ten ranked heavyweights.
How many did Conn beat?
I ask you again, which instances in the Liston fight show Machen was carrying an injury?

 

No offence intended I couldn’t give a solitary **** if you were ring side for every Machen fight and sparring round in existence he wasn’t that good (H2H compared to a lot of other world class HWs) and seeing him “at the time” adds nothing, there is film of him fighting and when watching said film if you think he ain’t a 2nd rater compared to JJW and Conn… again back to said film watch him fight Liston practically one handed, just watch the fight.

 

I have watched the fight lots of times.Again I ask you to provide instances when Machen shows he is injured,that's 3 times now.

Conn fought 11 heavyweights,7 of them were third raters.How many Conn fights have you watched? Conn retired at 31.
Machen at 35, 7 of his 11 losses came when he was past 32.

At 33 he was still good enough to beat an up and coming Quarry.
Now tell us about all the top heavies Conn beat?
How about ;
Jackie Lyons lost 3 of last 4 and drew the other.
Mike O Dowd lost 2 of last 3 chucked out in the other one because it was a fix.
Danny Hasset lost his last 2,4 of his last 6 ,all by ko.
J D Turner lost last 2 stopped by151 lbs Charley Burley 2 fights later ,Conn refused Burley as an opponent.
Al McCoy lost 2 of last 3 had won3 of his7.

Henry Cooper lost his last 4 had won 1 of his last 17.
Buddy Knox .Had won 1 of his last 4.
Gunner Barlund .Had lost 3 of his last 5.

Conn beat Pastor,in and out Savold, and Dorazio [badly cut eye].
That's his sum total at heavyweight.
No offence, but I don't care how many times you say Machen was a second rater, his record emphatically proves he wasn't.

 

Mac I really don’t care about Machen enough to debate this. Conn is a better boxer than Machen no one would disagree with that surely? he wasn’t a real HW he was a 175lber so he has a scant record but still kicks Machen’s @zz. I’m not going to time stamp all the times Machen should’ve used his right hand to prove it, tf lol you can just watch the fight again. If you disagree just kick rocks and move on.

 

You certainly failed history miserably. Futch's instructions to Norton were well different than Joe Louis talking about how he'd beat Ali. The whole key to it was timing. Louis liked to wait and counter a lot more vs Futch's plan, which he wouldn't possess.

On top of this Futch himself said Norton wouldn't have beaten Ali a year or two earlier let alone when he was at his peak in the 60's. Ali critics always want to isolate 70's Ali as if it's his best.

Norton also has 1 1/2" of reach on Louis and a notable extra 4" of reach. These certainly come in handy in elite level jabbing battles, to put it mildly. He usually blocked jabs closer to his face than Louis as well.

If Max Schmeling could land 70+ right hands on Louis, mostly as leads or over the top of his low left hand imagine what a lightning fast guy like Ali would do. It wouldn't be competitive.

If a 168-169 pound Billy Conn could outspeed, outpoint and outmaneuver peak Louis for 12 rounds (and wobble him) imagine what a faster, harder hitting more robust Muhammad Ali would do to him. It wouldn't be competitive. This sentence is on your level so you should love it, especially given you are a size queen as well.

 

This is fun

 

I totally agree.That's why Mohammad Ali and Joe Louis are regarded as the 2 greatest heavyweight-champions
in history.