Could Sonny Liston have made it undefeated vs Louis title defenses?

Leotis Martin, Machen, and Marshall were not great light heavyweights and were even worse heavyweights, but they did well against Liston, and Conn is better than all three.

 

Guess what’s inbound? “B-but that doesn’t count” lol.

 

Sonny Liston: The Big Bear Who Would Have Ruled Joe Louis's Heavyweight Jungle.

Step aside from the smoke-filled mythos, the sepia-toned nostalgia, and the echo of “that guy who lost to Cassius Clay.” Let’s talk about Sonny Liston—the Big Bear, the man with the telephone pole jab, fists like anvils, and a stare that could freeze a charging bull in mid-stride. If you want to measure Liston by the yardstick of his losses to a young Muhammad Ali, you’re missing the forest for the trees. Let’s imagine how Liston would have fared against every man Joe Louis faced during his legendary heavyweight title defenses. Spoiler: Sonny goes undefeated.

First, let’s dispel the notion that Liston’s legacy begins and ends with his losses to Ali. When Liston stepped into the ring, he was widely regarded as unbeatable, a destroyer who had mowed down Floyd Patterson—twice—in the first round, and who carried a jab so powerful it could rearrange a man’s dental records. His losses to Ali were shrouded in controversy—a bum shoulder, whispers of mob involvement, and the blinding speed of a once-in-a-generation fighter. But to define Liston by those nights is to ignore the sum of his savage artistry in the ring.

And let’s not forget the cloud of uncertainty that hovered over his age. Officially, Liston claimed to be 32 when he fought Clay in 1964, but many believed he was older—possibly 34, 36, or even in his mid-40s. The truth is, no one really knew. Born into poverty with no birth certificate, Liston’s real age was a riddle, but what’s certain is that he was far from a fresh-faced contender when he faced Ali. Imagine what a prime, younger Liston—untouched by the wear and tear of a hard life—could have accomplished.

• At 6’1”, 215 pounds, with an 84-inch reach, that's right, an 84 inch reach! That's Tyson Fury territory. Liston was a physical specimen, the son of a tenant farmer who knew hard labor before he knew the ring.
  
• Raised under the iron hand of his father, Sonny’s toughness was forged in the fires of rural Arkansas and the hard streets of St. Louis. The scars from his father’s whippings were still visible decades later—a testament to the pain he endured and overcame.
  
• The Liston jab was a weapon of war, not just a rangefinder. It was a battering ram, a telephone pole that could break bones and spirits.
  
• Despite the myth of being a “one-track fighter,” Liston was a master of distance, timing, and intimidation. He cut off the ring with the patience of a hunter and finished with the violence of a predator.
  

Imagine Sonny Liston, fresh from serving in the military from 1942 to 1945—a disciplined, hardened man with the added steel of Army training. The Big Bear, now with regimented conditioning and a soldier’s focus, would be even more formidable stepping into the ring against Louis’s challengers.


Here’s how Liston would have fared, one by one, against the men who tried—and failed—to take the crown from the Brown Bomber:

Jim Braddock - Liston’s jab and power overwhelm Braddock early. Braddock’s heart can’t withstand the physicality—Liston by KO.

Tommy Farr - Farr’s durability only prolongs the inevitable. Liston’s jab and body work break him down—Liston by late stoppage.

Nathan Mann - Mann’s aggression meets Liston’s superior reach and counterpunching—Liston by mid-round KO.
Harry Thomas - Thomas’s lack of power makes him easy prey. Liston walks him down—Liston by KO.

Jack Roper - Roper’s defense is no match for Liston’s jab—Liston by early KO.

Tony Galento - Galento’s wild swings are neutralized by Liston’s reach and discipline—Liston by KO.

Bob Pastor - Pastor’s movement delays the end, but Liston’s jab is the difference—Liston by decision or late KO.

Arturo Godoy - Godoy’s crouch is met with Liston’s uppercut—Liston by KO.

Johnny Paychek - Paychek’s lack of top-tier experience shows—Liston by KO.

Al McCoy - McCoy is outgunned—Liston by KO.

Buddy Baer - Baer’s size is matched, but not his skill—Liston by KO.

Billy Conn - Conn’s speed and skill are admirable, but Liston’s jab and power are too much—Liston by KO.

Lou Nova - Nova’s toughness can’t withstand Liston’s relentless attack—Liston by KO.

Abe Simon - Simon’s size is neutralized by Liston’s jab—Liston by KO.

Buddy Baer - (rematch) Same result—Liston by KO.

Johnny Davis - Davis is outclassed—Liston by KO.

Tami Mauriello - Mauriello’s aggression is countered by Liston’s jab—Liston by KO.

Jersey Joe Walcott - Walcott’s craftiness makes it interesting, but Liston’s jab and power wear him down—Liston by late KO or decision.

Ezzard Charles - Charles’s skill makes it competitive, but Liston’s physicality is the difference—Liston by decision.
Joe Walcott - (rematch) Liston adapts and dominates—Liston by KO.

Lee Savold - Savold’s chin is tested and fails—Liston by KO.

• Like Louis, Liston’s presence alone was enough to win half the battle before the opening bell.
  
  
• Against men who struggled with Louis’s jab, Liston’s was even longer and heavier.
  
  
• Liston’s knockout ratio and ability to finish with either hand would overwhelm most of Louis’s challengers.
  
  
• Liston’s chin and toughness, honed by a brutal upbringing and a stint in the military, would see him through any rough patches.
  

Sonny Liston was more than a footnote in Ali’s rise. He was a force of nature, a champion forged in hardship, violence, and redemption. Against Joe Louis’s heavyweight gauntlet, Liston’s jab, power, and psychological warfare would see him emerge undefeated—a champion in any era, and a legend whose shadow looms larger than the myths that try to contain him. And let’s remember: when he lost to Ali, he may have been pushing 40 or even older, his best years behind him—yet he was still considered the most intimidating man in boxing.

“The only thing my old man ever gave me was a beating,” Liston once said. But in the ring, he gave out beatings that became legend.

So let’s remember Sonny Liston not as the man who lost to Cassius Clay, but as the Big Bear who could have ruled any jungle, any time—no matter what the birth certificate said.

 

New post idea! Who's a better all-around fighter, Bob Pastor or Sonny Liston?

 

"it's not out of the question that Walcott stops Liston." - It's heavyweight boxing, anything can happen however the 1969 Liston was still a formidable force. Even at an advanced age, Liston had won 14 straight fights (13 by knockout) after his losses to Muhammad Ali, showing he retained his power and ring craft.
Jersey Joe Walcott in 1947 was a slick, elusive operator with a tricky style and excellent footwork, but he was not yet the champion who would later dethrone Ezzard Charles. In 1947, Walcott was a top contender, known for his defense and counterpunching, but he could be outworked by aggressive, powerful fighters.

Here's how I could see an aged Sonny beating a prime Jersey Joe.

Early-Round Power and Pressure:

• Even the aging Liston retained his legendary jab and clubbing power. Against Martin, he dominated the early rounds, knocking Martin down and controlling the action with his jab and left hook. Against Walcott, Liston would use the same approach—pressing forward, cutting off the ring, and forcing Walcott to the ropes, where his size and strength would be decisive.
  
  
• Physical Strength and Ring Generalship:
  Liston’s farm-forged strength and imposing presence would be a major factor. Walcott’s style relied on movement and making opponents miss, but Liston’s jab would disrupt his rhythm and his physicality would wear Walcott down in clinches.
  
  
• Capitalizing on Knockdowns:
  Walcott was dropped by lesser punchers in his career. The Liston who floored Martin in the fourth round could certainly put Walcott down early. If Liston could score a knockdown, he’d be able to build a points lead and force Walcott to take more risks.
  
  
• Experience and Ring Savvy:
  By 1969, Liston was a seasoned pro who knew how to win rounds and manage a fight. He could use his experience to pace himself, avoid overexertion, and focus on landing the most telling blows.
  

Now as for Charles. Let's use our imaginations shall we? This'll be fun.


Let’s keep the hats on and the cigars lit, because this is a real fantasy fisticuff: the weathered, late-1969 version of Sonny Liston—gray at the temples but still a menace—against the best version of Ezzard Charles, the “Cincinnati Cobra,” a master boxer and one of the most technically gifted heavyweights of all time.

The Matchup: Aged Liston vs. Prime Charles

• Sonny Liston (1969):
  Estimated age: 37–41.
  Strengths: Heavy jab, clubbing power, imposing size, ring experience, and underrated craft.
  Weaknesses: Slower feet, diminished stamina, and less ability to cut off the ring than in his prime.
  
  
• Ezzard Charles (Prime):
  Age: 28–30.
  Strengths: Superb footwork, fast hands, defensive genius, combination punching, and high ring IQ.
  Weaknesses: Not a big puncher at heavyweight, sometimes struggled with physically imposing sluggers.
  

How Liston Could Win: The Blueprint
1. Make It a Physical Affair
The older Liston would need to turn the fight into a battle of strength and will, not a dance contest. Charles thrived at mid-range, using his speed and combinations. Liston, even at 40, was still a physical force—just ask Leotis Martin, who hit the deck before rallying late.

• Liston’s Gameplan:
  
  • Use the jab to disrupt Charles’s rhythm and keep him from getting comfortable at range.
    
    
  • Lean on Charles in clinches, using his 215+ pound frame to sap the smaller man’s legs.
    
    
  • Target the body early and often, slowing Charles’s movement and making him more hittable as rounds progress.
    

2. Fast Start, Bank Rounds
Liston’s stamina was fading by 1969, but his early-round power and aggression were still formidable. Against Martin, he dominated the first half, scoring a knockdown and winning rounds.

• Liston’s Gameplan:
• Build a lead on the scorecards in the first six rounds, knowing Charles gets stronger as the fight goes on.
• Look to land the jab and right hand, making Charles respect his power.
• Come out aggressively, forcing Charles to fight off the back foot.
• 3. Roughhouse Tactics and Ring Savvy

Liston’s experience would be his ally. He’d use every trick: mauling on the inside, holding and hitting, and making Charles uncomfortable.

• Liston’s Gameplan:
  
  • Use his forearms, shoulders, and weight to wear Charles down in clinches.
    
    
  • Cut off the ring as best as possible, forcing Charles into corners and onto the ropes, where Liston’s power is most dangerous.
    
    
  • Keep the fight at a measured pace, minimizing exchanges and maximizing control.
    

4. Limit Charles’s Offense
Charles was not a devastating puncher at heavyweight. Liston, even aged, had a reliable chin and was rarely stopped cleanly.

• Liston’s Gameplan:
  
  • Absorb Charles’s combinations, then answer back with single, heavy shots.
    
    
  • Make Charles pay for every exchange, discouraging him from letting his hands go freely.
    

Scenario: How It Plays Out

• Rounds 1–6: Liston comes out behind the jab, pressing Charles, bullying him in clinches, and landing hard body shots. Charles lands quick combinations but can’t get into a rhythm.
  
  
• Rounds 7–10: Charles adjusts, using his footwork to avoid prolonged exchanges, but Liston’s early work has slowed him. Liston continues to press, banking rounds on aggression and ring generalship.
  
  
• Rounds 11–12: Charles rallies, but Liston’s physicality and early lead are enough to hold him off.
  

Keys to Victory for Liston

• Start fast and bank rounds before stamina fades.
  
  
• Use every ounce of physical strength and experience to sap Charles’s energy.
  
  
• Make it an ugly, grinding fight—less chess, more tug-of-war.
  
  
• Rely on the jab, body work, and roughhouse tactics.
  

Conclusion: Liston’s Path to Victory
The 1969 Liston, with his age and diminished stamina, would have no chance in a footrace. But in a dogfight, with smart tactics, early aggression, and the kind of farm-forged strength that never leaves a man, he could edge a decision over a prime Ezzard Charles—especially over 12 rounds, where his early work and physical dominance could outweigh Charles’s late rally.

Scenario Outcome:
Liston by close, possibly controversial decision, using early aggression, physicality, and ring craft to outpoint the brilliant but smaller Charles.

And that, fight fans, is how the old bear could still catch the cobra—if only for one last night.

So many different angles to look at when you're dealing with fantasy scenarios. "...could Liston maintain that pace for 12 years?" - I believe so. Now, Sonny Liston—ah, the Big Bear, the most intimidating man to ever lace up gloves—entered the professional ranks in 1953 and fought until 1970, a 17-year span. But here’s where the plot thickens: Liston’s true age was a riddle wrapped in an enigma, with whispers he may have been well into his 40s when he was flattening Floyd Patterson and scaring the wits out of the heavyweight division. Some say he started boxing as a teenager under another name, which would put him at 45 when he won the title—making his longevity all the more impressive.

 

Me after entering this thread expecting a nice discussion of Sonny Liston only to be surprised by another modern heavyweight vs Ali argument:

 

I think Ezzard Charles gives Liston huge problems. He had the combination of speed, footwork, skill, experience, and just enough pop to get respect. But it doesn't even get that far, because Liston takes a dive long before then.

 

No. Liston despite his talent was never as disciplined as Louis was and he didn't have the patience that Louis did in the ring, which I could see costing him against tricky and seasoned opponents like Pastor, Conn, Walcott, Godoy, Farr, etc...

Another problem is Liston once he was champion didn't have as good a team as Louis did.

 

https://vault.si.com/vault/1964/02/10/the-four-who-baffled-liston
In this article is states that Marshall knocked Liston down in the rematch.

 

I don't even think Louis could do it.

 

Incorrectly. I mean, have a look at the ridiculous bias in that article. It's been carved up in here many times. chok lived by it.

 

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