Toney v Golovkin At Middleweight

So now I'm not allowed to reference the poor showings of a fighter against guys that never achieved anything because it chaps your ass? I have no problems in accepting that Golovkin had some fights where he came in with sub-par form. I even referenced one. The difference in class is revealed between Toney and Golovkin here. Sick Golovkin finished the fight with a KO and the other guy looked like he'd been mugged by a gang. Toney on the other hand went life and death with these random guys.

Yeah and all three of those guys gave him hellfire and brimstone. If Toney was so amazing he'd have dealt with them imperiously ... the same way Golovkin at his best dealt with his opponents. Instead we have Nunn beating him like a tambourine for most of the fight and Reggie and Mike taking him to his limits.

Tiberi wanted justice and nobody supported him. I guess Dave had these things called principles.

Let's take one example ... Golovkin.

In 2006 he had 6 (six) fights, all KOs.
In 2007 he had 3 fights, with 2 KOs and none close.
In 2008 he had 5 fights, with 3 KOs and none close.
In 2009 he had 4 fights, all KOs.
In 2013 he had 4 fights, all KOs.
In 2014, he had 3 fights, all KOs.

Etc.

In none of these fights in which he was "prime" did he let anybody even come close, despite in some cases an even busier schedule than Toney.

In terms of 'wear and tear' you betcha I am. You still have to train for those fights and you still get punched in the face. That's over 1000 rounds of fighting we are talking about.

Both those dudes were highly rated and top fighters in the division. Proksa had a win over Sebastian Sylvester and was seen by some as a stiffer test than Pirog (who was the original opponent). Monroe was WBA champion having beaten Vera and Adams. He's always been seen as a particularly crafty and quick fighter to deal with. How good they are compared to the other two is debatable.

Fact is that Toney outlasted Nunn more than breaking him down. Nunn gave him the ol panelbeating treatment. Nunn's corner should have told him to calm TF down and stop trying to blast Toney out.

Nunn is a good win, I don't disagree. The difference if GGG faced him would have been that Golovkin would have done the hammering and Nunn the running.

Canelo is much better than McCallum and his record proves it. More specifically, McCallum was an old fighter by the time Toney faced him and that certainly played a part in Toney being able to hang with him. Shave a couple of years off MM and Toney would probably have had 2 losses.

Golovkin was an ageing fighter by that time, and he still sat both those guys on their asses. He beat Jacobs fair and square, even though Jacobs came in significantly heavier than Golovkin. Derevyanchenko looked like he'd been in a car crash after the bout. Both those guys would have given Toney everything that he could handle.

Most of the guys here don't know what they are looking at.

Oh noes! God forbid that somebody bring objectivity and facts into the discussion! What is the world coming to? Let's all concentrate on Toney's achievement at eating the entire Mike Nunn All-You-Can-Eat-Punch Buffet and coming out the winner

The context is that one of these two has the most defences in middleweight history and made the entire division his beach for many years. The other guy has a come-from-behind win and a win over an ageing fighter as his standout achievements at the weight. Me, I'm taking the legend at the weight.

Counterpoint: no he isn't and no he didn't.

That's a different argument which has no bearing on a clash at 160.

Yes he did. Toney also struggled to a win over Sosa and Arthur frickin Willis.

At his best, Golovkin was peerless.

He didn't just beat his opponents.

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Even when he was sick or had had a bad camp. Meanwhile Toney could get knocked out by the nearest cheeseburger Context.

 

Golovkin was more consistent but he didn't fight the level of opposition Toney fought.

Mike McCallum, Michael Nunn, would be far and away the best wins on Golovkin's resume.

And fighters like Reggie Johnson, Iran Barkley, would be top 5 wins for Golovkin.

Golovkin's best win is a razor thin close decision win over Daniel Jacobs which says it all.

 

Sanderline Williams is underrated.

He had very close decisions against Nigel Benn, Iran Barkley.

And he's known to be one of the most durable fighters at his weight.

People look at records on Boxrec and assume a fighter is bad without knowing the context of their career.

Jesse Burnett is another fighter who doesn't have a clean looking record but was a good fighter.

 

He was inexperienced because he was incredibly young and spent loads of his time in the gym just trying to get off the weight. Just because he was fighting very gifted fighters one after the other doesn't mean he was learning very much from that experience. His style seemed to develop more so later on in his career during his rough patch stuck between LHW and cruiser fighting and struggling with plenty lesser fighters but came out of that experience more complete. He was also able to spend more time sparring and working on his craft in the gym as he went up the weights since didn't have to work so hard to make weight. Toney had pretty much no amateur career to speak of and only won a handful of regional titles in his short career, where he very likely wasn't exposed to all that many styles or quality fighters.

Gennadiy was vastly more experienced because he had spent hundreds of fights beating the best fighters in Kazakhstan and the neighbouring Uzbeks. As part of the Kazakh team, he got to travel the world for international competitions and got to spar the best fighters in the world in some of the most famous gyms in the world. A decade long amateur career fighting against the best fighters from all corners of the planet, meeting and training under some of the best coaches on Earth. He also had his extensive pro career campaigning at MW beating the best guys in his division and the diverse range of styles on offer means that Gennadiy is vastly more experienced than Toney at 160lbs.

The best version of Toney at 160 was in the second McCallum fight and even then he won a fairly contentious decision where McCallum's jab still give him plenty of trouble, was only 24, was still struggling with the weight, and was a less developed and versatile fighter than he later became. Gennadiy is far more proven at MW and, imo, presents more stylistic challenges for a young Toney than vice versa.

 

At MW? I think GGG's intensity causes Toney a lot of problems. At MW, I think Golovkin edges on points.

 

Where we disagree DG is Toney was prime at 168lbs that was his “best” form but these are good post DG/BSC8 a long amateur means training for fights, sparring pros in the gym, other high ranked amateurs getting work wherever with everybody (wear and tear) and it does mean something but DG Toney fighting all that elite opposition? He 100% absolutely learnt a lot from that… the McCallum fight was the final piece of the puzzle to become TONEY. GGG would be unlikely to beat JT in my mind but he wouldn’t be clowned on and it’d be very unsurprising to see him win in the real world due to stuff you guys bring up…GGG had a Joe Louis quality where he created a huge gulf between his opponents In his best years. Toney was extremely busy with extremely tough opposition cutting a lot of weight with comparably much, much less experience out of the gate so he had mortal moments there for multiple reasons. GGG had been boxing since 11 and a proper competitive amateur fighter for a long, long time where as Toney was an on and off guy with football/the streets etc in the beginning and didn’t hook up with Miller till early as a pro and really begin to develop there, if they’d met at 160lbs before McCallum GGG could beat JT 60-40 if they met at 168lbs it’s
75-25 for JT IMO.

 

BCS8,

It’s a prime vs prime fight, Einstein.

A hypothetical fight, between the two fighters, fully fit, fighting to their full capabilities.

That is the debate that you have joined.

Yet before I even opened it, I knew full well that you’d be on here talking about Dave Tiberi.

You are simply incapable of debating objectively. And you’ve been here nearly 13 years, yet you’ve seemingly learnt nothing.

Golovkin NEVER fought those kinds of fighters.

That is a FACT.


Yes, James struggled with them. Because they were QUALITY fighters who gave him extremely tough stylistic match ups.

Apart from when he faced Roy Jones, Reggie Johnson gave everybody he ever fought, great, competitive fights. He was a very talented, slick southpaw. And on another level to Monroe and Proska.

A prime Michael Nunn was also a top quality fighter, who was also on another level to Proska and Monroe.


Who did Proska ever beat?

Who did Monroe ever beat?


Golovkin has NEVER faced a southpaw as good as Reggie Johnson.

Golovkin has NEVER faced a southpaw as good as Michael Nunn.

Try and absorb this information.


He never fought anyone as great as Mike McCallum, and he went life and death with Jacobs and Derev.

Yes, he beat his other completion with ease. But they were mostly B and C level guys, who didn’t cause him huge stylistic issues.


You’ve been here nearly 13 years, and still dint know what the word ‘context’ means.

Tiberi was unfairly treated, and James has admitted that. But he turned down a big money opportunity to prove that it wasn’t a fluke.

You’re as bright as an eclipse.

Why on earth have you typed out the above, when James was literally fighting once per MONTH at one stage.

You cannot compare a 3 round fight with head gear against a fellow amateur, to fighting world level opponents every month, in scheduled 10-12 round bouts. That should be obvious to even somebody of your low intellect.

James also used to spar hundreds of rounds.

It’s not in any way debatable to any knowledgeable boxing fan.

Neither of those guys were as good, as neither of them holds wins as good.

The fact is: You’re an ignoramus who has zero knowledge of the fight.

He didn’t outlast him at all.

He was down on the cards, against a huge, slick southpaw, but then he started slowing Mike down with his body attack.

He then ended the fight with a great knockout.

It wasn’t just a good win though, was it.

And you’re the guy who claims that GGG has these great wins over guys like Lemieux etc.

Yeah, yeah, GGG would have done the hammering.

But in the real world, we’ve simply no idea, as he never fought anybody like Michael Nunn in his entire career.

Another comedy post from you.

Canelo was MUCH better than Mike??

Ha!


Canelo could barely beat Austin Trout.

He couldn’t win a round off of a 36 year old Floyd.

He dodged GGG for nearly 2 years.


Mike beat Kalule, Curry, Jackson, Graham, Watson, Collins and Kalambay.


So what if Mike was old? He’d recently beaten Kalambay, Collins and Watson.


Floyd was even older than Mike, yet Canelo couldn’t win a round.


So:

You’re criticising James for struggling with a 35 year old Mike, yet Canelo couldn’t do anything with a 36 year old Floyd.


Yet in your fantasy world, Canelo was better than both Mike and James.

No, he wasn’t.

It’s just that you have to hype Canelo, as it was GGG’s best opponent.

Those are two of the three best fighters he ever fought. And he barely beat them.

Please absorb the information.

Most notably you.

You haven’t brought ANY OBJECTIVITY into the debate at all. And again, you simply haven’t got the capacity to apply context. You don’t even know the definition of the word. Your arguments are always based upon statistics without context. It’s the reason you’re such a poor poster.

That is how you debate.

Then comes the:

Sarcasm

Deflection

Disappearance

The most defences against WHO??

Mostly B and C level guys, in a very WEAK era of the division’s history.

The other guy, beat BETTER fighters at the weight, before moving up and beating other world level fighters in higher divisions.

Reggie, Nunn and Mike, were a better group of fighters than who Golovkin faced.

Yet it’s okay for you to bring non relevant things to the debate?

At his best, GGG fought only B and C level fighters.

And when he stepped up a level, he struggled.

There’s your CONTEXT.

 

Dorrian_Grey,

What on earth are you talking about?


He spent hours and hours in the gym with the great Bill Miller.

They studied hours and hours of footage of the great ‘Cincinnati Cobra’ Ezzard Charles.


They spent hours in the gym perfecting the shoulder roll etc.

He sparred Gerald McClellan.

He wasn’t just trying to get the weight off.


Did you not watch his career?

James was at his absolute best, when he was young with Miller.

He became less of a fighter, after they’d split in the mid 90’s.

That’s when he was at his lowest point, with the most issues with weight and form.


He didn’t develop further at LHW-CW.

He wasn’t more of a complete fighter at all.

He just sparred more.


Of course he learnt huge things and got great experience from who he fought.

They gave him tough gatekeepers like Sanderline Williams and Merqui Sosa.

They gave him slick southpaws like Reggie Johnson and Michael Nunn.

They gave him the genius of Mike McCallum.


They gave him those fighters, where he also had a legendary trainer with him on a daily basis.


That was HUGE experience.

And a lot more than what GGG was gaining, fighting in those 3 round amateur fights.

No, he wasn’t vastly more experienced at all.

It’s nonsense.


So what if he got to travel the world?


James fought McCallum and Nunn etc.


Who was GGG fighting exactly??

Give me the names.


James fought world level gatekeepers, elite level southpaws and a true, old school technician.

Yet you’re trying to tell me that GGG gained more experience, because he travelled and had lots of amateur fights??


It doesn’t matter if he had 500 amateur bouts. Nothing can beat the first hand experience that James had.

We’re not just comparing numbers here.

Nonsense.

Again, he did not develop further as a fighter as he aged.

The best versions of James that we ever saw, were in his MW-SMW reign, with Bill Miller.

After that, he became a lesser fighter.

Bill Miller said that.

And it was clear to see.


Again, Golovkin is not more proven at the weight at all.


Golovkin has never fought a southpaw as good as Reggie Johnson.

He has never fought a southpaw as good as Michael Nunn.

He has never fought anybody as good as Mike McCallum.


He has fought mostly B and C level guys.


This is who he’s fought:

Ouma
Proksa
Rosado
Ishida
Macklin
Stevens
Rubio
Geale
Murray
Munroe
Wade
Jacobs
Derev
Canelo

How many of those were elite?

What’s impressive about that?

Many, many MW’s of the past, could have followed that timeline and replicated the same number of title defences.

GGG was a great fighter. But what he achieved wasn’t some amazing feat.

He just had the right opportunity, in one of the weakest periods of the division’s history.


At the end of the day, James fought the better fighters, and he had more overall ability than GGG.

That’s the reason why he’d have been favoured.

The last time that we did a poll, over 70% voted for James.

 

The Sanderline Williams is just another pathetic argument. That was a pre-prime middleweight Toney. Not to mention that Toney beat him convincingly just 3 months later. Not to mention that most thought Toney won their first fight.

 

Mc Callum was also a better counter puncher than GGG. He had the better boxing skills overall.

 

He had no idea who Tiberi and Williams were, until he ran his finger down his resume on BoxRec, a few years ago.

 

Great post

 

Gennediys experience as an amateur doesn't help him against Toney who was the essence and embodiment of American professional style.

Gennadiy took the amateur style into the Canelo fights where he tried to win by out-pointing him on the score sheet.

He needed to go up another level and he just didn't have it. He fought a turn based strategy and never put it all on the line like McCallum did. The snatcher took leather to deliver leather. He went to places GGG wasn't even prepared to go against a version of Toney who had far less stamina and far less punch output.
Think Canelo with double the punch out-put , and stamina to work every minute of every round. Golovkin gets peppered basted and cooked

 

Trust me, you won't find a bigger McCallum fan than me on this forum and I agree McCallum was a far superior counter puncher than GGG. I still favor Toney over GGG but I have a ton of respect for GGG as a technician and one of the better punchers at 160. Unfortunately for him, that power doesn't help him against Toney who is easily one of the greatest defensive fighters that ever lived.

 

Awesome! In that case I pick the guy who knocked the F out of the division for almost a decade over the guy that has like two and a half good wins! Toney would look all lumpy after this one, like Golovkin's other victims.

Just looking at Toney's ceiling. Are we not allowed to do that?

I've learned that you throw a hissy fit whenever your favourite fighters get shown up

Toney NEVER fought the guys Golovkin did, that is a FACT.

^Notice that my emphasis is not only bolded, but one type point bigger than yours. Ergo, you lose.

Or, maybe because Toney wasn't as amazing at the time as you think ...

Apart from when he faced Golovkin, Willie Monroe Jr gave everybody he fought, great competitive fights. He was a very talented, slick southpaw.

Until Golovkin snapped him in half, Gregorz Proksa gave everybody he fought, great competitive fights. He was a very talented, slick southpaw.

Neither of these two guys lost to Adam George.

He was also on another level to Toney. If he'd done his roadwork Nunn would have finished what he'd started and sent Toney home in a clown bag.

I believe I already cited some of their wins. If you are suffering from early onset dementia you can scroll back and see. Do you need the link or can you manage?

Meanwhile I guess we can ask the same question about Reggie. WHO TF did Reggie ever beat? And when you look at his record, his absolute best win is scraping a MD against Steve Collins, who is not exactly a byword for boxing slickness. You're never going to hear the words "Sugar" Steve Collins, let's be honest.

Reggie pretty much made a career of beating down a mattress list of no-name specials and losing whenever he ran into somebody decent. I feel comfortable comparing Proksa and Monroe to him.

I'd put money on Golovkin beating John David Jackson.

Nunn would have been on your list of "bums that GGG had beat" if he had.

I give Nunn kudos for being better than Toney, but I don't commend him for his lax training habits. If he hadn't gassed from punching Toney in the face too much he'd have won by far.

Neither did Toney given that he fought a faded version of McCallum.

He beat Jacobs comfortably and had a hard fight vs Derevyanchenko. It happens, when you age as a fighter.

Funny how Toney's weak point is B and C level fighters

"Oh, Toney was tired."
"Dis guy was a southpaw"
"Oh, Toney ate 300 burgers before the fight"
"Ah, Toney wasn't ready for a C level fighter that throws punches"

OK Bob.