How tall was Floyd Patterson really?

And Rocky was an overachiever too, so I'm not sure how this is some sort of "gotcha" to dismiss the fact Patterson was out of his element in an open weight class. Rocky was clumsy, uncoordinated, had T Rex arms, wasn't particularly fast, and had to develop an insane gas tank through rigorous monk like training and strict dietary discipline to make his style effective.

 

Precisely! like Rocky his best opponents were at or around his size, he had his share of Vigo types in there that are realistic for him to beat. Ellis was 160lbs as a pro and did consciously bulk up to 190lbs-200lbs but had a career at 160lbs similar to Patterson at 175lbs.

an open weight class where he only had meaningful wins against other cruiser sized guys. It’s a realistic outcome, being in the open weight and say beating Liston, Lyle, Foreman, Norton, Ali etc that’d be impressive but really while he was swimming the same waters as elite 210-220lbs fighters he was either prey to them or was the fish that got away, Patterson beating big C listers is a reach for calling him an overachiever same as just because he is short, a short height can be an advantage - it’s boxing not every short fighter is an overachiever… what was the biggest height and reach he overcame against a good opponent anyway?

 

See my “Open weight” thoughts in the other post I quoted you in a minute ago - when was he 160lbs as a pro? How old was he when he stopped weighing 160lbs? He was always at LHW and became 175lbs at 20… he was around 168lbs as a teenager Glass end of. FP filled out to 180lbs-190lbs in his prime and his best wins came against other cruiser sized guys nothing unusual about that and it tracks with Moore, Charles, Marciano etc and he was bigger then both Moore and Charles. He was a very successful original cruiser sized classical HW.

 

I feel like maybe English isn't you guys' first language?

Patterson wasn't a natural cruiser sized guy. He was overachieving winning against cruiser sized opponents to begin with, let alone also having some success against b and c level big guys 210+.

Which doesn't disprove my point so it's irrelevant...? If anything bringing up Rocky only enhances my position that it's commendable guys like him and Patterson had the success they did.

You have a weird knack of focusing on the tree instead of the forest.

I mentioned all the things Rocky had going against him such as his clumsiness, incredibly short arms, etc, and you focused on one thing (his training to improve his stamina) while not bringing up anything that would detract from what my overall point was in the slightest.

No one is saying Patterson or Rocky were fighting a bunch of modern sized behemoths, but their shorter height, reach, and other intangibles (Patterson's chin, Rocky's clumsiness, etc) made their road to success an uphill battle. It's the combination of negative traits that made facing even cruiser sized opponents challenging, especially for Patterson who had a very small frame and had to pack on muscle to get to 185+ in the first place.

I didn't say he was 160 as a pro. Try actually addressing what I said. It's all there in plain English.

Moore, Charles, and Marciano weren't chinny 5'9 guys.

 

Let’s not resort to insults over dead athletes, I believe I have not insulted you have I? I think we are done, all of it’s there in plain English re-read and try to understand. IMO you’re missing the forest and usually do with @cross_trainer posts, no offence intended.

 

Patterson weighed roughly the same size as Ellis and Machen. He wasn't super undersized given his era

I doubt he was 5'9 either,

 

They've never been wrong. My intuition is impeccable. Ive aced every exam where I trusted my gut instinct.

Which is below the average cruiser sized guy, got it...!

Marciano was throwing 100 punches per round even in the last rounds. You don't get that kind of stamina from just going through the motions doing what everyone else does. Likewise, you don't get the kind of stamina "naturally". If you read his biography, Rocky wasn't some stamina beast from the start, he was sucking wind in the 2nd round of his sparring matches and early anateur fights.

Punching a 300 pound bag and dipping underneath it were not common training tactics at all. Goldman was brilliant.

I never denied Patterson's hand speed and Rocky's power weren't natural gifts that helped them, they weren't carried by or reliant on those fists. Talent is overrated. It means nothing if you don't develop the other x factors that make a great fighter. I've seen guys 5x more athletic than Terrence Crawford in the gym, yet they never made it because they didn't put in the work. Patterson having fast hands and power is great, but he was still 5'9, chinny, and had a very small frame. Those weaknesses were still huge hurdles for him to overcome. This is my last time explaining this because it's obvious to anyone whose studied boxing for even 5 months or been to the gym.

I literally addressed all of this, which is why I got snarky and asked if you guys were reading my posts carefully.

Charles was taller than Patterson, had a better chin, etc.

Moorer had all of the above, and he also used to cut weight to get down to the LHW range. If I recall correctly, he would weigh as much as 200+ between fights and starved himself. Moorer could've thrived in a cruiserweight division with his natural frame.

Now as for their opposition, yes, some of the things you're bringing up are valid. Ingo wasn't particularly big, Louis was old, etc. I've criticized Rocky's opposition before dozens of times. You're still not acknowledging any of the x factors Patterson or Marciano had to overcome like their short reach and height. We aren't going to make progress if you keep pretending Patterson being fast or Rocky having lots of stamina completely made up for their disadvantages.

Literally no one is saying Patterson is the only HW boxer to overcome physical drawbacks. You really aren't getting what I'm saying at all even though I've said it in plain English 4x.

 

Floyd Patterson was most likely 5'9" like Tyson, Marciano and Frazier, who were often listed at 5'11".

Here is a picture with Floyd and Ingo in the early 80's
https://imgur.com/VvhdLTD

Floyd and Ingo in 1959
https://imgur.com/PwlLJwa

Here is Chuck Wepner, Ali, and Floyd
https://imgur.com/pCnAF5N

Cus, Tyson, Torres, and Floyd
https://imgur.com/ulo7ZQR

Lyle, Floyd, and Cooney
https://imgur.com/QCfVfyR

 

Floyd wasn't that short just a bird boned guy with a head the size of your fist I doubt he is much bigger then Canelo

 

I'd argue that anybody who wins a world title at most anything has overachieved compared to most...

Gotta love Floyd. Complex cat...

 

Charles has a better chin based on what exactly? If anything Patterson is probably more durable

 

Great photos. Thanks for sharing.

 

We know Floyd could be bounced (in part due to some early balance issues and leaving himself wide open when on the attack).

But the all important balance of the equation is that Floyd mostly always got up, quickly recovered and then went on to win.

Liston was the only guy to secure 2 actual, full 10 counts over Floyd.

Otherwise, he was only stopped by Ingo and Ali (x 2 - with some obvious non chin related qualifications for those 2 stoppages).

For all his Bingo and a fight that downgraded itself to a virtual mugging including some foul blows due to moronic refereeing, Ingo could not keep Floyd down - which in itself was insane.

So yes, Floyd’s whiskers have often copped an unfair rap - pun intended.

 

Floyd had quite a few outstanding moments in his rematch vs Ali.

True, Ali took it relaxed to begin with but a number of Floyd’s punches woke him up soon enough.

At 38 yo, Floyd was in terrific shape and still possessed insanely fast hands.

Among others, I particularly like this combo from Floyd. It doesn’t all land but Floyd caps off with a beautiful left and right hand.

See 1:06 for real time and 1:09 for slo mo replay.

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