Duran's Lightweight Status Is Overblown

Make no bones about it ... I think Ken was too upright and not strong enough to keep Duran off him, but I insist that it deserved the technical draw if you think that Duran didn't intend to punch low. Personally, I would've had no qualms if Duran was DQ'd for it - would've been harsh as I don't recall him being warned prior from memory and down to referee interpretation - I just wouldn't put it below Roberto to seek every advantage to win his title and prove his greatness.

Buchanan at the very least deserved a rematch if you're gonna take his title away.

 

Good points, but he is nowhere near as good defensively as someone like Leonard or Duran. He wasn't as slick and got hit far more frequently than they did.

 

Roberto hit Kenny in the nuts because Ken for the 2nd time in the fight, didn't stop throwing punches after the bell had rung

 

Ah, yeah, I remember it being a reaction to something - gonna have to rewatch it.

I suppose it's dark arts, once you open the door, you can't complain about the response. Maybe the referee thinks well, you've broken the rules so all is fair - still don't think a champion should ever lose off a low blow, whether they started the rule bending/breaking or not.

Give him time to recover, warn both fighters and let Duran knock him out cleanly I say.

 

I hear ya

 

Yep, that's where the ATG chin failsafe comes into play.

 

Yeah,,with no title at stake!

 

Edwin Viruet II shows Duran's more counter based playstyle as Viruet was surprisingly strong and big enough to handle prime Duran on the inside, otherwise/either way it could also be a plan to make Viruet the aggressor and sneak some shots in to win.

 

Just gonna do a few at a time, based on what comes to mind.

* Edwin Viruet also had a win over a young Escalera and drew with Saoul Mamby. More to the point, Duran was the only lightweight who was able to score a clear and decisive win over him when he was at his best. Dude was a legit contender who did a little more than just beat Fernandez.

* Kobayashi may have been a career 130lb fighter, but he had been the 130lb champion until earlier that year. You could say that he was damaged goods following the war with Marcano, but he was at the very least, a proven, world class guy at the lower weight.

* I'm not gonna tell you Rojas was amazing or anything, but a win on the road against a former featherweight champ Clemente Sanchez when the latter was being positioned for a title shot at lightweight indicates that he wasn't completely useless. He also acquitted himself well against Ishimatsu after he was granted the title shot meant for Sanchez. Again, not great or memorable, but hardly worth the vitriol thrown his way.

* Lampkin shut out a ranked Arturo Pineda in the latter's backyard, defeated another ranked contender in Miguel Mayan twice, and KO'd a then ranked Chu Chu Malave, who held two wins over the underrated Harold Weston. You can question why he was number one in '74 and '75, but he certainly deserved to be in consideration for a title shot at any rate. If he went the Ishimatsu route instead of facing Duran, he might well have been able to bag a title.

I'll answer the rest later. But honestly, I think Duran's lightweight resume is kinda underrated. Two guys who crack my top 20, one who cracks the top 50, and a number of solid contenders at lightweight. That's...not bad.

 

I agree.

Carlos Ortiz is the GOAT at 135.

 

Quick self correction: Lampkin didn't shut out Pineda, but PIneda was still ranked and it was held in a pro-Pineda setting.

 

H2H ability, he’s not, but probably in terms of 135lbs LW legacy based on resume.

I think that’s what you’re saying though, so I agree.

 

Buchanan was an excellent fighter, 43-1 and Champion so was Estaban. Edwin Viruet, Saoul Mamby and others were very good fighters. Many would have been strong Champs in another era. A 16 fight Duran beat Ernesto Marcel early in his career, but he grew in experience and made his bones in the lightweight division as a young fighter. Duran continued his greatness in the welterweight division and beyond.

Duran was 71-1 when he fought and beat Ray Leonard (who was a great Welterweight Champion) Roberto's one loss came from being out of condition with DeJesus who he beat severely in 2 subsequent battles. The 2nd fight with Leonard was master strategized by Angelo Dundee, who knew Duran notoriously partied and blew up after fights. The Leonard people insisted on an immediate rematch with Duran, or they would take the American money elsewhere.

It was impossible for Duran to get in the condition he was in for the Montreal fight first fight. History was made = No Mas, it was not because Duran was afraid to get hit, he just knew he was outsmarted, and Leonard was prepared, and Duran was not.

Duran would always suffer from lack of discipline, or I should say consistency in camp because his countryman had a party ready for him after each fight. The greats in boxing stayed in good condition to get in great condition, Roberto not always.

Duran still went on to have a close fight vs Middleweight Champion Marvin Hagler (who is considered a top 5 Middleweight ATG by most) He beat Iran Barkley (who KO'd Tommy Hearns) and the first Leonard fight was his prime fight and win at welterweight. Duran also had victories over Carlos Palamino and Pepino Cuevas

Duran was the greatest at 135 and other than Henry Armstrong who rose up in weight to win 4 titles only a few are close.

Benny Leonard was a great lightweight Champion and in my top 3 and could be #1 I believe Ray Arcel favored Duran, and he trained both men.

Either way Duran was a great fighter and amazing when in his prime which was at the end of his lightweight career or the beginning of his welterweight career when he was 71-1 and Leonard was 27-0. Can you imagine if Duran retired at 71-1 after beating SRL?

Duran was a dominant lightweight champion and his career after was the cherry on the cake despite some erratic lapses in regiment and condition.

 

Hi Buddy.
Excellent, breakdown and synopsis of this truly great fighter, why oh why does Duran have be defended time and again on the forum, I just don't get it ? he is without doubt either 1 or 2 in the LWs , and could be in the top of the WWs with the victory over SRL.
Stay safe buddy, chat soon.
Mike.

 

I agree with you, to an extent.

Of all the career LWs, I rank Duran highest on my P4P ATG list, which is based on all career fights in all weight divisions.

However at LW, based solely on fights contested at LW, I agree Leonard and Gans are ahead.

I have Duran at #3, though can absolutely see McFarland ahead. If I ignore the status of world titles, McFarland would be ahead. He's unbeaten at the weight and has a stronger win resume than Duran.

I can see Oritiz (my #6) and Canzernori (my #10) over Duran, but only if the sole criteria is quality of win resume. Factoring in domination too, I'm comfortable with Duran above both, especially Canzernori.

Allowing for a few lbs over in non title fights, their respective LW records are as follows:

Duran:

• Record = 36-1
• World title record = 13-0 during his 7-year reign
• Key wins = De Jesus (2-1) borderline top 20 ATG, Buchanan borderline top 20 ATG, Fernandez, Lampkin, Kobayashi, Thompson, Viruet x 2, Bizzaro and Ishimatsu
• Prime losses = De Jesus, avenged (2-1)

Ortiz:

• Record = 42-5-1 (was 41-3-1, two defeats after likely past prime and weight drained)
• World title record = 11-2 during reigns of 3 and 2.5 years respectively
• Key wins = Brown borderline top 10 ATG though perhaps past prime, Elorde x 2, Laguna (2-1), Ramos, Bizzaro, Charnley and Busso (1-1)
• Prime losses = Busso by SD aged 21 so "prime" may be harsh (1-1) avenged, Lane by MD aged 22 (1-1) avenged and Laguna by MD (2-1) avenged x 2

Canzernori:

• Record = 61-11-1
• World title record = 7-4 during 2.5 and 1.5 year reigns respectively
• Key wins = Lou Ambers (1-2) top 10 ATG, Kid Berg (2-1), Kid Chocolate x 2 Inc. 1 x SD, Petrolle (1-1), Arizmendi, Singer, Bass, Lew Massey, Lewis Kirsch, Frankley Klick x 4, Cleo Locatelli x 2, Rodak and Chuck Wood (1-1)
• Prime losses - Lou Ambers (1-2), Sammy Mandell aged 20 (so "prime may be harsh) SD, Kid Berg aged 21 (2-1) twice avenged, Fuller, Ramey, Ross x 2 by MD and SD, Dublinsky (avenged at LWW) and Chuck Wood.

I value dominance highly. By my ranking values, I can see Ortiz higher, as his losses were all close and avenged and he has a deeper win resume (though an argument can be made Duran has the best 3 x wins between them). I just think Duran was further removed from the field and so give him the edge.

Canzernori arguably has the best LW win resume of the three and whilst I don't hold narrow defeats against my all time #11 Sammy Mandell, Kid Berg (avenged twice), both as a young man, his 2 x defeats against Ambers or his 2 x close defeats against the bonafined ATG Ross, against him too much, the other 5 x losses means he lacks the dominance over the field of Ortiz and especially Duran.

As always with rankings, differences between people knowledgeable on the subject matter, are usually explicable by different criteria and/or ranking values.