Rate the quality of Sonny Liston's resume

Respective results are only one piece of a mutifaceted puzzle

Satterfield failed to ko him in their second fight when Daniels had added poundage.
So did Archie Moore.

Sattterfield only won a majority decision in their second fight
Williams took a U Dec off Daniels 10 months later.
None of this means anything except that Daniels was a heavyweight when he fought Williams.and was for the last 39 fights and last 8 years of his career. Marshall stopped a 170lbs Daniels,he also stopped Ezzard Charles .But let's not bring dates and context into the debate,lets just parrot figures and disregard all that.

 

And so did Williams failed while Marciano didn't.

 

Walls had literally just been knocked out a month prior to the Williams bout... hed been belted all over the ring countless times by that point.. going into that fight he had 28 losses, 14 by stoppage.. in light of that am i still meant to be impressed that a 25lb heavier than Marciano Williams got it done 2 rounds quicker?

Same with Henri.. going in to the Williams bout he had 23 losses, 7 by stoppage.. yet despite all that & being bigger than both Henri & Marciano he got it done just one round quicker than Rocky.. Amazing work..

He was supposed to blitz them.. they were put in there to take out.. difference is Marciano did all 3..

Call me when Marciano gets chinned by Bob Satterfield, UDs Keene Simmons, gets put on his arse twice by men like Sylvester Jones & goes 20 rounds with chinny LHW Frankie Daniels despite having 20lbs on him.

What's so great about Williams seriously... Lost to Liston twice, Foster twice, Ali, Satterfield , Cleroux.. went 1-1 with Terrell, 1-1 with Jones.. couldn't beat Machen.. he beat what? ONE top 10 opponent & dozens of average fighters in a near 100 fight career .. & he's in the same league as Marciano?!

 

That wasnt the issue, a poster claimed Marciano kod him and he didn't.

 

In which post was the underlined ever claimed?

 

Wrong. Henri was a seasoned professional coming off two solid wins and was the betting favourite when he stepped in against the raw, 19 year old Williams.

https://ibb.co/N2d1fz0K

Actually according to Al Weill Daniels was fired as Marciano's sparring partner for being "too rough for Rocky".

https://ibb.co/gbLkmBFz

 

Lastarza isn't being touted as a thunderous punching HW monster like Williams tho is he?

& Lastarza was also about 190lbs for those 2 fights... Williams was 205.. big difference..

& Simmons was massively overweight & out of shape in the Williams fight too , weighing 220lbs.. a far cry from the rocky & Lastarza fights when he weighed 200lbs

So Williams couldn't even KO a marshmallow version. Or how do you call them? 'Obese'.. thats how you referred to Cockell the other day wasn't it, so what does that make Simmons eh eh?

 

Walls had been stopped by.
Calcinore 2rds
Beranardo 4rds
Brion1 rd
Dominic 2rds
Before he fought Marciano.
I think most objective posters would agree Williams losing to Ali and Foster at that stage if his career is forgiveable.

The Cleroux fight?
"Bob Cleroux, 30 year old former Canadian heavyweight champ, scored a unanimous decision over Cleveland Williams in a 10 round heavyweight fight Thursday night. But his puffed up face indicated he was anything but a winner. Cleroux had four or five visible marks on his face as a result of his match against the giant Texan. His eyes were half-closed and his cheeks were puffed. On the other side of the Montreal Forum, Williams looked more like the winner than the loser. Cleroux had control of the fight in the early going but a hard left from Williams late in the 4th opened a cut over Cleroux's eye and it seemed to take the edge away from the Montrealer. Cleroux almost sent Williams to the canvas with a hard left in the 5th but appeared to lose some strength in the 6th and 7th. Cleroux improved in the 8th, however, after he was warned by referee Baillargeon for butting Williams." -Associated Press


So weight is only significant when its Williams or Liston who has the advantage? Is that how it works?

 

A seasoned professional .. i am crying .. your definition of a seasoned professional for Williams is a 16-23-1 (at the time of the fight) 190lber? That's the standards you hold Williams to? Did you know in the same year that Williams beat him he was also KOd in 2 by 177lb Julian Keene .. & prior to that Marciano opponent kid Matthews had taken care of him in 2 also.. he beat 2 opponents? Two solid wins? Who? 179lb Lalu Sabotin who never got a decent win his entire career & 182lb Art Swiden who had by that point beat 9 debutees & had took 8 losses against his non debutants & 2 draws? That's solid is it? LMAO..

Oh no look a newspaper article sparring story claiming perennial loser Frankie Daniel's 38-35-6 was too rough for Rocky in sparring.. it must mean he had Rocky's number then & would have been too much for him

 

Your claim that "he was supposed to blitz them.. they were put in there to take out.." has been proved wrong. Deal with it.

 

Garner and Agramonte are two of the twelve ever rated fighters Williams fought. As with almost all the others, they were fringe at best and their best was not when they faced Williams.

Certainly 38 fights is experienced. The issue is whom had he fought? Satterfield had been matched tough since the get go. In his 5th fight Satterfield faced Johnny Vorce (28-15-1) and in his 8th Curley Denton (52-40-14). He faced his first ever rated opponent in his 11th fight--Bob Garner (31-9-4). He fought Holman Williams in his 15th fight. Jack LaMotta in his 17th.

So Satterfield was thrown to the sharks right off. He was fighting guys like Archie Moore long before his 39th fight.

Whose fault is it that Williams faced set up opposition and so hardly progressed? His management? Perhaps. But we have to deal with the Williams of history and so end up with a fighter whose only rated opponents beaten were Billy Daniels and Alex Miteff.

Williams highest rated opponent beaten was Billy Daniels in 1963. Daniels' record was 18-1. The irony is Daniels had fought half as many fights as the "green" Williams had before Satterfield. Going into their second fight Daniels had 25 fights. Even Miteff only had 32.

The real problem is Williams had not fought and beaten top opposition. And mostly he never would. He failed against Satterfield, Liston twice, Terrell in theiir rematch once Ernie had made the ratings, and after the shooting, he failed against Ali, Cleroux, Foster, and Chuvalo.

There are reasons for the failures. Some valid. He survived a terrible shooting. He was certainly a decent heavyweight. He was consistent against second-tier competition. But for whatever reason never got over the hump into proving himself top class with signature wins.

 

So Daniels was massively overweight for all his 39 heavyweight fights?

We can see Cockell was obese where can we see Simmons wasa t 220lbs v Williams? You've just looked at Box rec and made that assumption. Here is Simmons against Norkus
Charley Norkus vs. Keene Simmons HL Reel Simmons weighs 208lbs here

 

Cockell was overweight and flabby. But what is the point with Simmons? In shape or not, he was not a winning fighter.

Lots of out of shape or "obese" fighters have done well. The obese Willie Meehan beat a prime Dempsey. The obese Tony Galento knocked down Joe Louis. The obese Andy Ruiz KO'd body beautiful Anthony Joshua to win the heavyweight title.

Some guys can carry extra weight and fight well. Lots of Mr. Universe types with their rippling muscles are mediocre or worse fighters.

 

And Toney.

 

Why is this aimed at me.I didnt say Daniels was massively overweight and out of shape?
Did I ever suggest Daniels was anything but a journeyman?
I called him a fulltime sparring partner 2 days ago.

Cockell was 30lbs over his optimum weight, he was obese, do you dispute this and the film of the fight?

Dempsey lost to Meehan in1917, I don't consider that his prime, and I seriously doubt any boxing scholar would.
Do you think the rest of your post is informing me of something I am not already aware of?