Rate the quality of Sonny Liston's resume

My comment was entirely on the comparison of Simmons to Cockell. I wasn't referring to Daniels at all.

"Cockell was 30 lbs. over his optimum weight"

I wouldn't know that. He apparently felt making 175 weakened him and so went to heavyweight. What was his optimum weight in 1955. My guess is it was something like 185 to 190, so his was carrying 15 to 20 lbs. extra.

But the main point was this doesn't mean a guy can't fight, especially if he is skilled. Moore is another who fought much above 175 while he was light-heavy champ. Even over 200. And he still won.

"Dempsey lost to Meehan in 1917"

Yes, and he also lost to Meehan in San Francisco on September 13, 1918. This loss came almost exactly between Dempsey's KO of Fred Fulton on July 27, 1918 and his KO of Battling Levinsky on November 6, 1918. I stand by Dempsey was prime.

*by the way. My original post was not "aimed" at anyone. I just wanted to make the point that being overweight doesn't in and of ifself prove a guy can't fight.

 

The issue here, is you're painting a partisan narrative. Wins over the shells of Garner and Agramonte prove Williams wasn't green, yet Williams' win over Holman who had much more life in him than the aforementioned two should be dismissed?

"Certainly 38 fights is experienced. The issue is whom had he fought?

"The irony is Daniels had fought half as many fights as the "green" Williams had before Satterfield. Going into their second fight Daniels had 25 fights. Even Miteff only had 32."
Not sure why you're ignoring the fact that Williams had no amateur career to speak of. The majority of those 38 fights WERE his amateur career.

Also the first 10 bouts of his career were 6 rounders at most, and he hadn't even gone 8 rounds until his 20th fight.

You're premise that Daniels and Miteff were more inexperienced than Williams is incorrect.

"He served in the U.S. Airforce from 1956-1960, and fought on the US Airforce Boxing Team. In 1956, he won the Bratanica Shield 175lbs. Title. A year later he captured the 12th Airforce, USAEF, and Bratanica Shield Lightheavyweight Titles.
Daniels was trained by future world lightheavyweight champion Bob Foster while in the Airforce. In 1958, Daniels won the 12th Airforce, USAEF, Bratanica Shield, All-Air Force, and CISM Championships.

Upon his discharge in 1960, Daniels won the New York Golden Gloves Heavyweight Title. He retired from amateur boxing with a record of 45-5."
Source: Boxrec
Daniels before he even turned pro, was more experienced than Williams of the Satterfield bout.

Daniels had also made the top ten rankings two years (and stayed there) before he fought Williams, while Williams wouldn't find a rating for another half decade following the Satterfield bout.

As for Miteff, I can't find much for his amateur career. Will have to look through newspaper archives later as I've only found 2 fights. But Miteff had 201 rounds under his belt by the time he fought Williams. Williams had 144 when he fought Satterfield. And that’s ignoring Miteff's amateur career.

I've no issue with a respectful debate but let's please keep it grounded in intellectual honesty.

"There are reasons for the failures. Some valid. He survived a terrible shooting. He was certainly a decent heavyweight. He was consistent against second-tier competition. But for whatever reason never got over the hump into proving himself top class with signature wins."
Yes he had a string of bad luck. Benbow and Viscusi both complained of their inability to make fights with name fighters. They went as high as $50,000 for Doug Jones and were rebuffed for example.

Williams was also injured when he fought Terrell in the rematch and the bout was in grave danger of being cancelled.

"I hurt my hands on Billy Daniels on March 9. A couple of weeks later I banged them up on Young Jack Johnson. I couldn't throw a punch without a stabbing pain going through my arm. But the promoter had set up this return match. We didn't want to let him down. It was a mistake. Even so, I thought I licked him, but it was in Philadelphia, his home town and he got a hometown decision."

Source:: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/99985978/the-los-angeles-times/

• Williams scheduled bout on April 13th with Ernie Terrell was placed in jeopardy due to Williams' injuring both hands during the bout. But the Terrell-Williams bout took place as planned. Source: https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Cleveland_Williams_vs._Young_Jack_Johnson

"But but but, those are clearly sour grapes. Why is he only making these excuses AFTER the fight? He's pulling a Machen!"

Their was also talk about this immediately after the Johnson bout before he faced Terrell so it can't be dismissed as a post-loss excuse.

"Heavyweight contender Cleveland Williams scored a costly TKO over Young Jack Johnson Tuesday night in the final round of a scheduled 10-rounder. Williams signed for a television bout against Ernie Terrell April 13, injured both hands in the wild brawl with Johnson." https://www.newspapers.com/clip/99984956/des-moines-tribune/

Despite all this, Williams took Terrell to the limit, dropped a questionable thin as you can get split decision (and Terrell in that third round imo) that one judge and the associated press for Terrell's resident state scored for Williams, who had Terrell holding on for dear life at the end of the bout, and ready to go.

There’s no doubt Williams’ injuries held him back against Terrell. He couldn’t sustain his usual aggression and was forced to fight in bursts, relying more on his boxing skills—which, to his credit, were solid. But had he been able to press the action consistently, the outcome might have looked very different.

In the originally scheduled WBA title fight with Terrell—before Williams was shot—Williams likely would have come out on top. Even against a diminished version of Williams, Terrell was visibly spent and done. In that condition, he almost certainly would not have made the 15 rounds required in a championship bout. Hell I doubt he would've gone 12.

If Williams had won, he'd have been WBA champion and likely picked up some defenses against the likes of Chuvalo and Jones, which would put his resume in a very different light. You keep saying Williams never proved himself among the top—well, he never got the chance to.

Even so, he was the best of the rest along with Machen, and Terrell as he proved going 1-1-1 with them (I’d argue 2-0-1).

The picture you're trying to paint of Williams, that he was a fringe contender simply doesn’t hold up—he was ranked No. 2 (possibly no.1) by the WBA and No. 4 by The Ring at the time he was shot.

 

YOU'RE FINDING SOME EXCELLENT STUFF SWAG! WELL DONE!

 

Cheers mate! Means a lot coming from you!

 

Well done,Swag.

 

You’re on fire Swag.

Especially re your highlighting of the number of limited round fights on Williams’ record - a fact that doesn’t seem to be being duly taken on board - and a fact that highlights that actual rounds fought should also be included in the calculations for so called “experience”.

I’ll just add that the Satterfield KO loss is often improperly fixated on and overly weighted for the purpose of discrediting Williams.

Reference to same for that very purpose always omits Williams young age, the fact that he was a late substitute and the fact that he had not yet matured into his fully prime size of 210-215 lbs.

Intentional omissions or not, they do not lend to due analysis’ which obviously then leads to skewed conclusions.

There is also the self contradicting dual claims that 1) Williams record was padded with few notable names appearing and 2) Williams was well “experienced” going into the Satterfield with a 36-1-1 record.

Sufficient to say that one can’t have their cake and eat it too.

And the crux point is, when reasonably and properly considered, how much does the Satts KO loss actually matter relative to the greater scheme of Williams’ whole career?

Prime Williams is reasonably calculated to have been be a far cry from the barely over 200 lbs near 21 yo version from 1954.

If the Satts loss meant what some people think or claim it to have meant, Cleve would’ve been crashing out again at some point before the Liston fights - but that didn’t happen.

Nor did it happen again through to Williams gun shot injury and nor did it happen again for another period after that, until the Ali fight - despite Williams then advancing age and the serious physical injury he acquired along the way.

 

“Big” Toney but not “Biggest” Toney that guy wasn’t very good.

 

I was told you were my friend by Mac I can see why lol give’m hell Lonny … but keep in mind we are all on the chopping block atm so do read the meatball, squabbles etc thread so you don’t accidentally become a causality lol.

 

No need for anyone to become a CAUSALITY,whatever that is. No need either for epiphets like liar, and massive hypocrite,let's all leave the personal insults out.

 

The "Liston cleaned out the division" mantra led me to do research on champions and how many of the contenders they had beaten when they became champion. I used The Ring Annual Ratings because they are consistent on the end of the year. I used the end of the year, and credited who defeated a contender before the end of the year (Louis, Charles, and Frazier) Just to see how the various champions from Baer to Frazier stack up. Listed is whom they had defeated and their rating, and who was the #1 contender if not listed:

Max Baer 1934
Primo Carnera #2, Max Schmeling #4, King Levinsky #5----(#1 contender, Steve Hamas)

Jimmy Braddock 1935
None----(#1 contender, Joe Louis)

Joe Louis 1937
Tommy Farr #2, Bob Pastor #8, Roscoe Toles #9-----(#1 contender, Max Schmeling)

Ezzard Charles 1949
Jersey Joe Walcott #4, Jimmy Bivins #7, Pat Valentino #8----(#1 contender, Charles--#2 Lee Oma)

Jersey Joe Walcott 1951
Ezzard Charles #1

Rocky Marciano 1952
Jersey Joe Walcott #1, Rex Layne #2, Roland LaStarza #7

Floyd Patterson 1956
Hurricane Jackson #1, Archie Moore #2

Ingemar Johansson 1959
Floyd Patterson #2, Henry Cooper #4, Eddie Machen #5, Joe Erskine #9----(#1 contender, Zora Folley)

Floyd Patterson 1960
Ingemar Johansson #2----(#1 contender, Sonny Liston)

Sonny Liston 1962
Floyd Patterson #1, Zora Folley #5, Cleveland Willaims #6

Muhammad Ali 1964
Sonny Liston #1, Doug Jones #10

Joe Frazier 1968
Oscar Bonavena #3, George Chuvalo #4, Manuel Ramos #8----(The Ring champion, Muhammad Ali)

**the big surprise is Ingo. Who would have thought he had more wins over his top five and top ten than Liston did.

 

Why can't you just admit you were wrong for once instead of manufacturing strawmen?

 

"you're painting a partisan narration"

That makes me unique? Actually, I think I am less emotionally involved in this debate than many on the other side. But that is only a personal opinion.

"let's keep it grounded in intellectual honesty"

Okay. But that should go for both sides. When I pointed out that Willie Meehan had beaten a prime Dempsey--September of 1918--I was told he was not prime. He only reached prime in 1919. Whatever. That was not you.

You're intellectual honesty take is yours, but I admit you made a valid point which I overlooked. Billy Daniels and Alex Miteff did have extensive amateur careers, and so got off to good career starts. They were at their best early in their careers. I just never thought of that. If that makes me intellectually dishonest, I have to plead guilty.

"The picture you are trying to paint of Williams, that he was a fringe contender, simply doesn't hold up."

I don't think I every used the term fringe contender. (Perhaps another poster did, and you are confusing us) I posted he was a decent contender, but not a top contender because he simply did not defeat a fighter who was highly rated when he fought them. My question is what would you call him and why? Did he rate above men who beat multiple champions like Ray and Layne? Above a guy who beat Schmeling and KO'd Loughran like Hamas? Someone with a run of KO's of rated men like Franklin? Did he accomplish more than Firpo? Nova? Valdes? Bivins? Should he rated above erratic types with lots of defeats but lots of big wins like Risko and Satterfield? With solid runs of wins over second tier guys like Baker who rose higher in the ratings.

"Daniels"

The problem is Williams beat him twice by decision. In between these two fights he lost several fights including getting KO'd in three by Mildenberger. He did not actually win half of his career fights, going 23-21-4.

"Miteff"

Had lost 3 of his last 4, but to good fighters. Was still rated #9. Interestingly, was best when young. He had only 42 pro rounds under his belt when he faced Besmanoff, who had been rated. He had 62 pro rounds experience when he faced Holman and KO'd him in 9, in the fight right before Williams outpointed Holman in ten. He met Valdes with 79 rounds of pro experience.

"Holman"

Had lost five of six, and was coming in off a KO defeat to Miteff.

These are worthy victories on a resume. They shouldn't be the best, or close to the best, for a really top man though.

So it boils down to a somewhat green Terrell, who was not yet rated, and whom Williams lost a rematch to. Williams deserves credit, but how much? Each to decide.

end of part one

 

https://www.quora.com/What-was-the-...st-fight-Was-he-ever-reprimanded-for-doing-so

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/rocky-marciano-vs-sonny-liston.432718/page-49#post-18696108

https://www.b0xingscene.com/forums/...se-of-you-who-put-think-marciano-is-overrated Replace 0 with o
Then there's your permabanned alt (one of them at least)

https://ringsidereport.com/?p=54591

https://www.b0xingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76182 Replace 0 with O.

 

"Williams' injuries held him back against Terrell. He couldn't sustain his usual aggression and was forced to fight in spurts, relying on his boxing skills."

I just watched the film. Honestly, Williams seemed slow. Did hand injuries cause that. Also he seemed wide open for right crosses. The left side of his cheek and eye ended up badly puffed. He could box, but his reactions looked slow, and he had Louis' weakness of being open to a right. Whatever else, he certainly threw a lot of fierce looking punches. He just often missed badly.

This is a fight folks disagree about. I had Terrell winning 6-3-1. It was a great fight, most unusual for Octopus Ernie.

"In the originally scheduled WBA title fight with Terrell--before Williams was shot--Williams likely would have come out on top."

Perhaps. But perhaps not. He lost to Terrell in 1963. Would the two years have helped the aging Williams? Anyway, rating a guy high for something he didn't actually do? I just don't go there. I rate on real world victories.

"If Williams had won, he'd have been WBA champion and likely picked up some defenses against Chuvalo and Jones."

Of course none of this happened.

"put him in a different light."

Somewhat. But let's not overdo it. If we accept this scenario, what would it mean? Williams would be the fourth best heavyweight. I can't believe anyone thinks the 33 year old Williams (if not shot) would somehow have been in Ali's class. And Liston? Liston had already crushed him twice. I don't think there is any reason to think a third fight would have seen a reversal. And I think Patterson was better and had a far better resume. Williams would have been a paper champion, not the best out there.

Anyway, nice discussion, from this virulent partisan.