Joe Louis vs David Tua

There are levels in this sport, Louis was an elite fighter and Tua never was, Louis by KO/TKO...

 

I don't care what you think of his opponents, the phrase "bum of the month", wasn't about his opponents being bums. And I wouldn't brag about how well your eyes work in a thread where you've said Louis' defence is worse than Tua's and their footwork is equal

I'm not exaggerating, Louis has the second best resume in heavyweight history and the greatest title reign in any division's history. If that's not good enough for you, you can write off the 70s, 80s 90, 2000s or 2150s.

Not Tyson, no. That's basically just Louis' fight with Marciano. But Shavers? Yeah, that's more embarrassing than being dropped by Baer. He was also dropped by Snipes and Weaver (that referee had worse eyes than you) and that's exactly what proves my point. When a guy is champ for ages, **** happens - you get dropped by guys you shouldn't be getting dropped by.

You did lump them together right here.

But no, Glass. This isn't an uphill battle. You're arguing that the guy with the longest title reign ever (in the divsion where anyone can get knocked out) either had a bad chin or a bad defence. If either of those were true, don't you think someone in those 12 years of him being champ would've figured it out? Instead of just throwing a blanket assertion across Louis entire career - why don't you just look at the KDs? He suffered 10, in 7 fights, across 69 fights. That's hardly bad - especially when only two of them stopped him and one was in his final fight and both were after prolonged beatings.

- 2x against Schmeling: Clearly showed his chin, I'm happy to chalk these two to bad defence - this was the fight that let him improve his defence.

- 1x against Braddock: Flash knockdown. Caught cold. Balance issue at best.

- 1x against Galento: Flash knockdown against a big puncher. Balance issue at best.

- 1x against Baer: Flash knockdown against a huge puncher who had like 30 first round KOs, was 35lbs bigger and had a 90% KO rate. Hardly embarrassing.

- 3x against Walcott: had no affect on his ability to fight. He didn't seem hurt by any of them lmao. All of them were exactly like Marciano's KD from Walcott - a product of excellent timing.

- 2x against Marciano: Final fight against atg and a monster puncher.

 

Then I guess Benitez isn't the defensive wizard you think he is.

Compared to guys like Locche and Mayweather, those are as statistics.

 

If you don't care what I think about the quality of Louis' opponents then, have a good day I guess? If you're not interested in debating the quality of said opposition and have made up your mind, then you wasted your time replying to me.

Yes Louis had the 2nd best resume, due to longevity and sheer quantity. You could compare him to guys like Bill Russel or LeBron James.

If you think it's embarrassing for Holmes to be dropped by Shavers, a guy who frequently makes top 3 hardest punches of all time lists, then I can only assume you're trolling, have never seen footage of Shavers, or you have seen him and are being a weird fanboy pretending it's embarrassing. There's really no other options. Buddy Baer? Name 3 credible opponents he stopped. Shavers has several.

I didn't say that I didn't lump them together. You complained, so I said we don't have to lump them together. This is a reading comprehension issue. I was humoring you.

Louis was head and shoulders above his own division in terms of technique, timing, accuracy, combination punching, finishing ability, leverage, etc. Very few could match his power and even fewer could match his hand speed. His only deficiencies were his chin/balance issues (prone to getting buzzed or suffering flash knockdowns), relatively slow feet, and having lapses in his defense.

When you're superior to your competition in so many categories, you can make up for your deficiencies in other areas. Louis offensive ability and technique were so great it made up for his weaknesses. That's how he managed for 25 title defenses, and that's why no one manages to dethrone him. Attempting to get close to Louis and hurt him was like walking through a mine field.

I have a question I hope you won't ignore: Wladmir Klitschko managed quite a few title defenses only surpassed by Holmes and Louis. Would you describe him as having good defense and/or chin?

 

Yeah, apparently being knocked down by bums like Tyson and Shavers are embarrassing highlights for Holmes. You learn something new everyday on this forum.

 

You brought up his competition.

Being hurt by Shavers isn't embarrassing. Being hit by him like that is. Holmes already showed the world how easily he can beat Shavers. Shavers as a fighter was mediocre with a huge punch. That's why he basically always lost against guys in there prime. Buddy Baer is without doubt the more complete and consistent fighter and would probably break Shavers in half.

Funny how you again just completely gloss over Holmes' other knockdowns. And I didn't mention the other times he was hurt like Witherspoon, Williams or Cooney.

Tony Galento
Abe Simon
Nathan Mann

Defence and balance are different things and separate issues. I'm sure we're in agreement regarding this, despite it completely undermining your argument of Louis' KDs being caused by either a bad chin or bad defence.

I mean, I don't see what Wlad has to do with it. It's well known he's chinny, and I'd confidently say that his ability to reign for so long was because he was unbelievable at using his height, the jab and the clinch to control opponents - plus great power to keep them honest. The fact that in Wlad's long career, he showed others can get to him in the exact same way they could get to Louis and Holmes, just proves exactly what I'm saying. When you have a long career - especially at heavy - you get hit hard.

I see you're still not willing to actually look at Louis' KDs. Shame, I bet those eyes are begging to be used for something.

 

Joe Louis by KO

 

That's the most cop out answer imaginable

That’s what we’re doing ? You hear a bump in Beethoven’s rehearsal and decide he’s not a composer ? If knockdowns are your compass for defense, then Earnie Shavers was slicker than Sweet Pea.

And it's not just me dude, it's the majority of people who have actually watched Benitez. Oh and you know, Sugar Ray Leonard himself. This type of response leads me to believe you haven't actually even sat down to watch a Benitez fight.

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14:35

Pernell Whitaker was dropped 9 times. Willie Pep was knocked down 11 times, that's even more than Louis. What ? Are Pep and Whitaker also not the defensive wizard people think they are ? Those 2 along with Benitez make 3 of most knowledgeable people's top 5 defensive fighters in history. What's next ? Mayweather and Locche were the only defensive wizards in Boxing history ?

Just own the fact that your statistics based approach is inherently flawed, man. Whoever said numbers don't lie for the first time had a lot of bridges to sell. There are several other Boxers who were superb defensively and got knocked down plenty of times. You previously asked for 3 fighters who were known for their defence who got dropped as many times as Louis. Those aren't just 3 guys with good defence, they're as good as it gets.

And if you think knockdowns inherintly erase a career of elite defensive wizardry, you’re not debating boxing, you’re LARPing in a sport you don’t understand.

 

I had a much higher regard for Tua before I rewatched his pathetic effort in his fight with Chris Byrd. That fight alone makes it hard for me to pick Tua to beat any truly elite full-sized heavyweight.

 

You have just met one of the never-ending mysteries of Classic Forum: Tua's greatness.
For whatever reason, some posters seem to regard Tua as a sort of ATG HW wonder, when at best he was just another "also ran" contender.

Tua's boxing greatness is like the Lochness Monster: it has been debunked already, but never goes entirely away, and from time to time it rears its ugly head.

You will get used to it eventually.

 

Yeah, but IMHO that is one of the laziest arguments ever:
"Fighter XXX packs a serious punch and can also take a mean hit, therefore he is TBE".

 

You are playing word games.

In order to get hurt by Shavers, you need to get hit by him, usually the way he hit Holmes.

Shavers actually improved in between the first Holmes fight and the 2nd. For most of his career he was a part time boxer who was still doing manual labor and hasn't had a full proper training camp. Shavers was poorly managed and was told to just focus on power in training, which is why he has stamina issues. Once he linked up with Ali, he had a proper facility to train and learned how to pace himself.

There's nothing embarrassing about being dropped by arguably the hardest hitter of all time. You sound silly.

Witherspoon would go on to to become a 2x champion. Cooney was stated by Foreman to be one of the hardest hitters he faced. These are certainly less embarrassing moments to get hurt than being dropped by guys like Tony lardass Galento or James Journeyman Braddock, 2 guys with more than 20 losses to their names individually.

Having good balance is intricately tied to defense. Have you boxed a single day in your life? You can't have good defense without good balance.

Okay, so you admit that Wladmir wasn't exactly a defensive wizard and was chinny. He made up for it with his jab and grab tactics. In other words, having a long reign isn't proof someone must have a good chin/defense etc which is what you keep claiming in regards to Louis!

I have looked at Louis' knockdowns several times, as well as the not so impressive records of the men who dropped him. I'm still waiting for you to tell me 3 notable opponents Buddy Baer stopped, George.

 

It isn't flawed.

I didn't say the statistics are proof on their own without using any context.

For example, Wilder had more title defenses than Sonny Liston, but this doesn't mean much when you look at who Wilder was defending his belt against compared to Liston who had to face Ali of all people.

My point wasn't that getting knocked down is the end all be all proof that someone is lacking in defense, but the knockdowns+quality of opposition do tell a story. The men who knocked Louis down weren't that remarkable and don't look impressive on film, so it's strange Louis was dropped by them if he supposedly had both a good chin and good defense

Obviously prime Benitez and Pep had good defense, you guys are continuously missing the point somehow.