Tucker's hand broken or just an excuse ?

I think there are less and less Tyson's excessive apologists.
In fact, the most common opinion among boxing fans (not casuals) nowadays is that Tyson was an overrated undersized heavyweight.

 

Could be. But still a lot of them on this forum and in this very thread.

 

I see your point.
But, is pointing that Tyson was a little subpar, while admitting that Douglas fought a great fight despite his own problems necessarily a case of "fanboyism" ?

 

If you don't say that "it wasn't real Mike" or "Mike would have won if it wasn't for such and such" than no. Both men weren't 100% on the night, both men had issues outside the ring, but Buster was the one to not let them influence the result. He was the better man on the night and that's it. Also - his troubles were of no fault of his own, while Mike was the one responsible for his poorer form.

 

Of course, I agree.
But one can be rightfully surprised of Mike's performance given his precedent dominance over opponents having quite the same style as Douglas.
Best regards.

 

I’m not angry nor do I feel humiliated or ridiculed, I simply wasn’t/am not interested in wasting my time.

I’ll accomodate and, while you might consider it an “Epic”, you can choose to read or not but I won’t repeat myself.

Now, if had you read what I wrote previously, notwithstanding if Fury was fully prepared or not, I already addressed in detail the unique attributes that Ngannou brought to the table - assets that weren’t previously put to Fury in the exact combination that Francis brought to the fight.

Proof of those unique attributes? Well, despite Francis’ success, it didn’t lead people to assume that Usyk would enjoy similar success since Olek obviously didn’t possess the same size, strength and power that Ngannou did.

As to Fury’s conditioning, I did also already point out that he didn’t get his usual rest periods (via leaning and holding) because Francis was simply too big and strong for Fury to take luxury in same - that therefore tapped Fury’s gas tank even more so.

Fury never rematched Francis to prove that the complexion of the fight was the anomaly that some claim, said claimants attributing it only to Fury’s alleged lack of conditioning and focus - and, to his credit, Fury himself did not make such excuses after the fight - he in fact rejected them.

For comparison, take the Ali-Norton series. If Ali had never rematched Ken Norton, Ali’s difficulties and loss to Norton in the first instance might’ve been put down purely to Ali’s own lack of preparedness. Of course fights 2 and 3 clearly proved otherwise - Norton having all the right tools to give Ali hell every time.

Now you asked if Ngannou’s performance made him a top level fighter - but the answer to that is subject to definition of top level fighter.

Relative to Fury, yes, Francis performed as a top level fighter BUT, with just one pro fight under his belt, - the broader and more apt definition for a top level fighter (= application of skills against a broader range of styles) is impossible to answer due to insufficient sampling of pro fights.

Of course we know Francis lost his next pro fight, just his second pro fight ever, to AJ via KO - but how do you measure that relative to Fury who has still yet to face AJ himself. Ngannou matched two of the top fighters straight out of the gates. Crazy. In that very context, some might reason Francis’ record to be 1-1.

You say Fury was # 1 as at the time, but again, he hadn’t fought AJ and he had been avoiding/ delaying a fight against Usyk - and the fight against Ngannou was part of that delay.

As to Mike Tyson. Virtually anytime he performed less than expected, even before Douglas, there was always an excuse - little or no credit for what the opponent in question put to him.

For all of the alleged lack of preparedness that Tyson took into the Douglas fight, how did Mike last as long as he did AND how did he almost turn the fight around with the 8th round KD?

Many exaggerate how understated Mike appeared, if he was at all. He was, however, copping punishment from the get go - as Mike said, everyone has a plan until they’re punched in the mouth - was Mike somehow completely immune to his own axiom?

Also, post fight, it seemed some people imagined things missing from Mike’s game that weren’t actually present previously.

Mike could and did display terrific evasive movement early in fights - and he did skilfully avoid some punches early in Tokyo - but Mike didn’t do that for whole fights anyway, and he did become that much more static as the rounds wore on - and rather than the fast combos he launched early, he did become somewhat more one out later into fights.

Why wasn’t Douglas Champ before hand? Have you seen Buster’s fight vs Tucker? Buster was winning that fight until he gassed, causing him to simply drop tools, allowing Tucker to step up and stop him. Suffice to say, Buster’s own Dad was disgusted by his son’s capitulation on that occasion.

So, for once or one of the limited times that Buster was actually properly prepared, we saw what he was capable of in Tokyo - and he went into the fight with the reputation of a fighter who, while extremely well skilled, was often woefully underprepared.

Do you assume that every opponent that Mike had vanquished prior to was ideally prepared?

Of course they all weren’t - but there was no concession for same - the scalps of said fighters were fully and absolutely absorbed and built into Mike’s invincible rep.

By the time of Tokyo, that rep. was clearly over inflated - as reflected by the insane 42-1 odds in Mike’s favour - so where was the “intel” that Mike was grossly under prepared - whatever that “intel” was, it didn’t impact those odds - odds which basically equated to an expected 90 second blow out of Douglas -

I think the alleged and more significant claims of Mike’s pre fight follies came after the fact of the fight.

Suffice to say, in Mike’s case also, we didn’t see him rematch Douglas and prove that the complexion/outcome of their actual fight was an anomaly.

In contrast to same, Lennox Lewis did rematch the two guys who defeated him, going on to clearly defeat them and reasonably prove that the KO losses in the first instances were anomalies.

 

So how do you explain the fact that Buster found a way to beat a guy who dominated but couldn't find a way to beat a guy who was losing most of his important fights? How could Buster lose to Mike White, Jesse Ferguson, barely draw with Steffan Tangstadd?

 

With Tyson if he didn't dominate early he was in trouble. He got that domination against everyone else. Including against Tucker where he won most of the early rounds.

Those fights were a minimum of 5 years before the Tyson fight. For a prospect none of those were bad results even the White loss where he was almost shutting White out before presumably getting caught. Jesse Ferguson and Tangstad were both undefeated. Besides Tyson and Tucker most top guys were taking an upset here and there thats why Smith and Berbick had belts when Tyson hit the scene. But those guys were in their prime. Douglas was losing(or drawing) with future top level fighters in the buildup phase of his career. Ali struggled with Henry Cooper and Doug Jones early on but for some reason we can't look past that with Douglas when everything suggests we should.

 

wait, Douglas was no less experienced than Bey or Tangstadd when he fought them and much more advanced when he fought Ferguson. he was like Tyson in 1990 - in the 4th year of his career!

These were not green fighter vs prime boxer fights. White - excuse me, who is White compared to Tyson?

still doesn't explain anything.

He has a way with Tyson but not with White? please..

 

Due respect but I can’t keep explaining it all the way down the line.

As I’ve already said, more often than not, Buster was not ideally conditioned, prepared and focused - but his elite skills were always obvious and duly recognised.

Douglas was very much the classic underachiever. It’s really that simple.

Did you note that Douglas was pitching a shut out against White before being stopped? Did you also note that Douglas came in at a heavy 242 lbs or so for the Ferguson fight but still nearly stopped the undefeated Jesse in round 1?

The caller for the Tyson fight, Bob Sheridan, gave an excellent run down on Douglas before the fight - acknowledging that he was immensely talented but often didn’t apply himself 100% to the sport - in fact, he often put in much less than 100%.

Bob Sheridan famously mused “Which Buster Douglas will we see tonight” or words very close to that effect.

You even have evidence of Douglas erratic application of himself post Tokyo - in his very next fight vs Holyfield, no less.

Douglas was obviously in very poor condition, weighing a blubbery 245 lbs or so and was already huffing and puffing some time before Evander caught him with the counter right hand.

His prep was clearly well below what you would expect even for an average fighter.

And he was not “out”‘from the punch that dropped him - he was good to get up but chose to stay down - a far cry from the guy who got back in rd 8 vs Tyson.

The Douglas who faced Holyfield obviously didn’t have anywhere near the same commitment and resolve as the Tokyo version of himself.

 

No man, fighters arent humans they are comic characters, they have to be consistent at all times. Next you are gonna tell me their motivation and preparation plays a role! Hah!!

 

It does with Tyson, but no one else, lol.

 

Ok ok, it's great..
but are you, are you aware that these are EXCUSES!!?

Buster wasn't always perfectly trained, NOT ALWAYS!! seriously?
so Tyson was? no, you don't have to explain it to me. I am aware that a boxer is a human being and not a character from a computer game.

someone explains Mercer's defeat by Ferguson and then his attitude with Lewis - off, Ray was great but hot and cold. Holyfield - hot and cold
Lewis - hot and cold.

Tyson ALWAYS has to be hot. when he's cold - real hysteria: excuses, excuses !
Tyson was in his prime, he was 23, he was a disciplined warrior living like a Spartan 24/7, he simply couldn't have been unready for Buster, like Buster was for White, right?

 

So I take it you’re agreeing with me?

 

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