Could Sonny Liston have made it undefeated vs Louis title defenses?

He was tired and could not stop Wepner like Bugner and Foreman did inside 3 rounds, he was showing stamina problems also in Martin fight, if Wepner lasted more and fight was 15 rounds, Sonny would fall from exhaustion.

 

Maybe, maybe not, but that eye problem started way before the Liston fight, and had Martin fought someone else like Frazier, who broke Chuvalo's eye socket, the same would have happened to Martin, like in the Liston fight.

I provided evidence enough to see that he had a problem with that same eye way before the Liston fight, and that injury was going to happen sooner or later.

 

I'm enjoying our discussion because it makes me think. Ernie intended to use his superior height and reach and to exploit Ali's unorthodox style:


"I'm six six and he's six three," he says. "I got longer arms, and I use them for an advantage. You talk about styles? He's made to order for me, and mine is the worst possible for him. He's good at pulling back from a punch, but I don't throw just one. I come in with a double and triple jab. Maybe the first won't land, but the second or third will when he runs out of the ring. And I'm apt to hook off the jab in mid-stream, too."

"You take a book of matches," he said. "Stand it up facing you and flick at it with your finger and you gonna hit 10 out of 10 times. Now you turn the edge toward you and try again, and it ain't that easy to hit. That's the kind of target I am. I'm edge on to Clay, I'm like a tall, skinny pencil he can't hit. I'm not tailored for him to beat like Liston or Williams or Patterson. He calls me a one-armed bandit and a giraffe and things, and I'll go along with him if it builds a pile of money. But when we fight, he's gonna have to take it for the first time—I'll be hitting him from outside his range to hit back, and I'll tie him up in close. That side-to-side move don't bother me—I've had that before. Chuvalo got to Clay, and if he can do it I'll do it easy."


https://vault.si.com/vault/1967/02/06/muhammad-ali-ernie-terrell-title-fight


"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"

- Michael Gerard Tyson

 

It's been explained to him many times that both Martin and his manager explicitly said that the injury happened against Liston, and that there's no evidence of the cut he suffered against Wendell Newton causing any lasting damage. He doesn't care. He wants it to be true, so he just keeps on posting it.

 

An elimination tournament of Mike Tyson, Leotis Martin, Kevin McBride, and Sonny Liston at the same junctures of their careers would be interesting.

 

Cheers mate.Yep, I do remember this being posted to this guy before.

 

Agreed.I'm not saying Wepner was levels above McBride or anything like that.In fairness both these guys
were tough and had plenty of guts.Both Wepner and McBride would provide the same degree of difficulty
for any potential opponent.However given the horrific damage Liston ( despite his obvious decline ) inflicted
on Wepner I'm condident he would also give McBride a comprehensive beating.Perhaps,just perhaps,for
the reasons you say McBride would last a bit longer than Chuck.But the end result would be still be a
conclusive victory for Sonny.

 

But that's the gist of the matter.The evidence points to Martin suffering the detached retina in the Liston fight,i.e at that later date.

 

I"m watching Terrell V Williams 2 right now. It's amazing how bad Ali made both of them look, they look decent here, with the caveat Williams was a shot fighter, literally and figuratively.

 

Yes,but given the horrific damage inflicted on Wepner he was never going to come close to lasting 15 rounds.
Now whether Liston had stamina problems or not ,the question is academic.Just about every ringside
observer were amazed the Wepner fight wasn't stopped much earlier.It's safe to assume the same would
happen to McBride.

 

Actually that is a pretty good analysis of how Liston vs McBride could go.

 

It does not, it only points out that the injury happened and was even more evident after the Liston fight.

 

Terrell didnt fight, "tall".

 

It would not. McBride was bigger by 43 pounds and a stronger man with better skills and punch, he would get beaten, but not like Wepner until later rounds, where Sonny tires and then McBride knocks him out cold same way Martin did, maybe even faster.

 

I checked. This fight was a year before Cleveland was literally shot.