Could Sonny Liston have made it undefeated vs Louis title defenses?

Ok,fair enough they were obviously decent fighters but I would hestitate to use the word ' greats '
with regards to Jack Twin Sullivan and Jim Flynn.Good fighters sure,but ' greats ' ? I don't think
so.Andre Anderson may have been a SHW but he had more defeats than victories.Yes that draw with
a young Jack Dempsey was a fine achievement but his record overall was awful.
As for Gunboat Smith ? Well again this is a guy whose record was very,very iffy.He lost to Harry Greb
and as great as Greb was he was essentially a middleweight.

 

Jack Twin Sullivan was a 3 division champion or claimant at MW/LHW/HW. Thats an ATG though this is clearly based on the previous era. His HW title claim was flimsy but the guy he beat for the MW title became HW champ his next fight he then knocked out 2 of Burns HW title defenses at HW before losing to Kaufman.

Gunboat and Jim Flynn both went on amazing runs during the 1910s. Both both peak Sam Langford even if those were questionable decisions. They both were less successful outside these windows and took a lot of losses before and after their primes. Gunboats run from 1913-1915 is a title quality run. Greb beat Gunboat in 1920. Greb could never have been champ and his record at HW was heavily padded but he did not suck at HW and losing to him long after ones prime isn't a stain on ones career. The elo rankings I have from the time say he was 4th in 1919. Whether he should have been 4th isn't the point. Greb was decent at HW even if most of his ATG LHW peers were better than him at HW.

Andre Anderson finished his career 20-18 per boxer rec. He beat the aformentioned Meehan. Knocked out Jim Johnson who survived most of his encounters with Langford, Wills and co. Rodel and Palzer were big wins when Anderson beat them. Anderson doesn't just have the Dempsey draw. Anderson wasn't a Fulton, Coffey, Morris or Willard but at his best he was a borderline top 10 HW.

Besides Anderson this whole crew should be in the IBHOF. Sullivan it shouldn't even be close had a way better career than John L Sullivan. In the 1910s fighting a major eliminator makes you a contender because there were so few title fights. But Gunboat and Flynn fought 48 and 44 HW contenders. My leaderboard of guys who fought the most HW contenders is as follows.

78)Langford
52)Levinsky
48)Gunboat Smith
45)Jeanette
44)Jim Flynn
44)Risko
41)Louis
41)Ali
40)Ezzard Charles
40)Loughran

Now of this group clearly Gunboat, Flynn and Risko lost a lot more then the rest but they really stand out historically for how many top HWs they fought.

 

Fighting a huge number of contenders isn't really a sign of greatness/or excellence.It just reflected the the
narrative of the times.
Do you really think Greb would have enjoyed similar success in later decades ? For instance what about the 1960s ?
Jack Twin Sullivan may have been a PFP ATG....but at heavyweight ?
Andre Andersen had a poor record to say the least no matter which way you view his career.

 

Yep who your contenders are matter… for example Machen, Folley and Patterson… top 3 wins of Listons what would they be ranked today at HW?

 

That makes him even greater, a flyweight who beat two HW champions, ex and the future champion and also beat LHW champion.

That makes him even more great than Martin.

Jerry Quarry cut easy and that was first Ali fight after two years layoff, he had stamina problems and Quarry noticed that Ali tired easy and tried to stop him, but that's only because Ali was ring rusty.

No Quarry was not the fines, good contender much much bettwr than Martin but nothing more than that.

 

Dempsey did duck many fighters and never fought any good black fighter, he wouldn't fight Langford and admitted that.

Yes in a weak era, he was too small, even smaller than Patterson, his best wins are over old Patterson and injured Quarry.

When Ali, Frazier,Foreman,Norton and Shavers arrived Jimmy Ellis was not even good contender, he was the champion just because he only fought past prime Patterson and injured Quarry.

He got the title just because Ali was stripped from title, and if Quarry was not injured he would be the champiom instead Ellis.

 

Normally yes but Meehan specialized in these 4 rounders and only got stopped 3 times within 4 rounds. Once when he was 16 and then Gibbons and Miske knocked him out in the 1st round near the end of his career.

 

Honestly I think this is one of those matchups where it’s easy to get carried away either way, but if we break it down, Liston has a real shot at running the table.

Physically he was a nightmare for most of Louis’s challengers. Braddock, Buddy Baer, Simon… I just can’t see those guys coping with Sonny’s jab and sheer strength. Louis handled them with speed and combinations, but Liston’s thudding jab and power would probably make even shorter work of them.

Schmeling’s a more interesting case because of how well he timed Louis in their first fight. Schmeling’s counter right over the jab was his money shot and if anyone on that list was going to expose Liston early, it’s probably him. But at the same time, Liston had a far longer reach than Louis and was a more imposing physical presence. I’d still back Sonny to break him down eventually but it’s not a complete mismatch.

Conn’s footwork and speed might frustrate Liston for a few rounds too. He was brilliant in the first Louis fight until he got greedy and tried to go for the KO. Against Liston he’d have to box a perfect fight for 15 rounds. I’m not convinced he could do it without getting clipped at some point.

Walcott’s trickiness and unorthodox movement might make Sonny look a bit clumsy early doors. Jersey Joe had a habit of making even great fighters look awkward. But Walcott was also inconsistent and not the most durable, and once Liston started finding the range with the jab, I think he would gradually take over.

The real question is Louis himself. Prime Louis was quicker, threw beautiful combinations and was relentless when he smelled blood. If he could survive the first few rounds and take Liston into deep waters, there’s a real chance he outboxes him over 15. I’m not sure about a stoppage, Liston was very durable in his prime, but Louis could pile up enough rounds and possibly drop Sonny late. On the flip side, Liston’s jab and reach could keep Louis at range and his power meant he only needed to land clean once or twice.

Could Liston go undefeated? Against everyone else I think yes. Against Louis I’d call it 50/50. He had the tools to do it but Louis had the class and ring IQ to spoil anyone’s night.

 

Not sure if I’ve already commented on this, but I feel like he drops a loss or 2, but avenges them.

The people who he could lose to are Walcott and maybe someone else you wouldn’t expect.

 

There's also the effect of raw chance.

Over 20+ title bouts, you're going to run into a Buster Douglas, a Rahman, or a Ken Norton sometime. A guy you should beat, but it's just not your night.

(Except Louis never did, which is part of why he should be rated as high as he is.)

 

That’s a really good point and one that gets overlooked in these types of threads. Over a long title reign it’s not just about ability, it’s about consistency and dealing with all the little variables... bad camps, injuries, off nights, or just running into a guy who fights out of his skin.

Liston had the tools to beat all of Louis’s opponents on paper, but whether he could stay switched on fight after fight is another matter. He wasn’t known for being the most disciplined outside the ring either, and we know from the Ali fights how he could mentally check out when things weren’t going his way.

Louis is special because he didn’t have that slip-up. Even when he wasn’t at his best (like Godoy or the first Walcott fight) he found a way to win. That’s a big part of what separates an all-time great champion from a dominant fighter with a shorter peak.

So yeah, if we’re being realistic, I’d say Liston could go undefeated against that line-up but the odds of him actually doing it over 20+ defences are slim. A Schmeling or a Walcott catching him on an off night isn’t hard to imagine.

 

Yep. Very well put. It could even be something stupid, like one of the Baers catching him with a lucky punch at just the right time. Not likely, but Louis fought a lot of guys who could hit. Or Liston's shoulder gets injured against an opponent, jaw gets broken with a lucky shot, etc.

 

Higher than those of Jack Dillon or Willie Meehan ! Come to think of it.....higher than those of Jack Dempsey !!

 

What part of '' Dempsey actually signed a contract to fight Harry Wills in 1926 but the New York State Athletic Commission actually blocked the fight '' do you not understand ?

Of course Ellis was a good contender.Otherwise he would not have been invited to the WBA elimination tournament !

 

So according to you Leotis Martin is greater than Lennox Lewis, Vitali and Wladimir Klitschko because he started out as a light-heavyweight. Nice to know that you must have a very high opinion of Leotis Martin.

Jerry Quarry was the first man to defeat Earnie Shavers,Mac Foster and Ron Lyle.Jerry also gave a
terrific performance against Joe Frazier in the Ring's Fight of the Year in 1969.There is plenty of
justification for saying Jerry was possibly the finest heavyweight to never win the World Heavyweight
Championship.