Rate the quality of Sonny Liston's resume

Just on where I put Williams. Here are my ratings for the top heavyweights of the 1960's

1--Muhammad Ali
2--Sonny Liston
3--Joe Frazier
4--Floyd Patterson
5--Jimmy Ellis
6--Jerry Quarry
7--Oscar Bonavena
8--Ernie Terrell
9--Harold Johnson
10-Zora Folley
11--Karl Mildenberger
12--Eddie Machen

(Williams would be somewhere between 13-15 along with Chuvalo and Cleroux)

Who should Williams be rated above on this list and why?

 

No one's suggesting pro experience is less valuable than amateur. Only that, in the absence of any amateur experience at all, the early stages of a fighter's professional career are going to be spent making up that shortfall.

You do yourself no credit by attempting to spin the six bouts Williams said he had before 1951 into an additional four and a half years to be tacked onto his professional career.

 

I am not spinning anything.

Williams himself is quoted that he started his career in 1947.

If these are the only six fights he had, it is fair to point that out.

As for pro versus amateur experience, in those days the pro rules were far looser and so amateur boxing might not prepare one for the type of attacks one got in the pros.

The bottom line is forty fights and over 140 rounds is significant experience.

 

Yes, I was wrong about that as well. I didn't read your notes on the articles, just skimmed through.

It wasn’t a matter of poor training. The reality is that Chuvalo simply didn’t develop much beyond what he showed in his first fight with Miteff. Their rematch confirmed that. He hit his ceiling early, and that was about as far as he was going to go. If you disagree, then point to a stage in his career where he clearly wouldn’t have needed hometown ****ery just to avoid a loss to Miteff (twice). And while you’re at it, did you ever find another fight where a guy scored one knockdown but somehow got credited for two on two cards—and three on the third?

No one is trying to spin this as a negative. The simple fact is that Chuvalo’s fights against tougher opponents provided him with exponentially more valuable experience than the guys Williams faced.

Chuvalo defeated Dejohn at the end of his career with a majority decision.

Dejohn had much better performances against Miteff, and defeated Cleroux decisively which Chuvalo never managed to do.

Might have something to do with the fact that Dejohn was holding on for dear life inside.
"Not once in close did DeJohn work on the body of Liston instead of punching at the body he hung on."
Article clipped from Wisconsin State Journal - Newspapers.com™

as well as squatting to the floor to avoid punishment Article clipped from St. Louis Post-Dispatch - Newspapers.com™

Williams, on the other hand, had the courage to trade punches toe-to-toe with Liston and actively pursue the knockout—something he nearly got, Liston himself conceded. "I went out to feel him out in the first round and he almost knocked me out. I thought he had cut my throat" Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/54153015/daily-news-post/

He also rated Williams higher than Dejohn. "Two of William's losses came at the hands of Liston, who has said Williams was the hardest puncher he has ever met." https://www.newspapers.com/clip/51090697/sioux-city-journal/

It’s common sense that you’ll last much longer if you’re mostly trying to survive rather than genuinely going for the win.

Given your top ten presidential rankings, I'd consider this a credit to the aforementioned fighters. Obviously, Williams would be at a disadvantage of such a list considering he was shot before the halfway point of the decade. Despite this, Williams ranks higher than all of these men in such lists.

Heavyweight Action-1960s Rankings Williams is 11, while Chuvalo is 16. Cleroux and Dejohn do not make an appearance.

The Top Ranked Heavyweight Boxers of the 1960s Williams is 13, while Chuvalo is 16 again. Dejohn is 27. Cleroux is 38.


Williams also ranks above Chuvalo in the annual ring ratings every year until he's shot when he disappears entirely. The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: Heavyweight--1960s - BoxRec

I have zero doubt Williams could've replicated those wins (which he did in two instances). On the other hand, I doubt Dejohn replicates Williams' draw against Machen, nor his victory over Daniels. He failed miserably against both.

Fair enough, I'm admittedly unversed in that era. Even so, it's clear as day he was at the end of his career, considering he'd only fought once more.

Miteff on the other hand was just coming off the aforementioned half point SD loss to Chuvalo in his hometown and would on to give Ali
"Serious trouble during the early rounds".

Not sure where you're going with this. I was making the point that Agramonte had more wear and tear than Miteff going into their respective fights with Williams. Bringing up their post Williams bouts- doesn't change anyhing.

I was mistaken. It was $50,000 Article clipped from The Press Democrat - Newspapers.com™ It appears he also made offers to Folley.

You are mistaken. The issue isn't with Patterson choosing to fight Machen. It was his decision to fight Chuvalo. The WBA attempted to organize a tournament to determine a new champion for their vacant title. The plan was for the #1 contender to face the #4 (Terrell vs. Chuvalo) and the #2 to face the #3 (Williams vs. Patterson) in the semi-finals. But instead of following that structure, Patterson agreed to fight..... Chuvalo. This undermined the entire setup, prompting the WBA to abandon the tournament idea altogether and simply sanction Terrell vs. Williams as the bout for the vacant title.

"THE WBA after stripping clay of his crown, named Terrell, former heavyweight king Floyd Patterson, Cleveland Williams of Houston, and Doug Jones of NY to fight it out in a tournament to determine a successor to Clay. Since then, Jones onetime top contender, has lost to Billy Daniels, and George Chuvalo"
Jones was the original fourth contestant but after losing to Daniels and Chuvalo, was replaced by the latter.

Take it up with the WBA, not me. If Williams was really such a non-factor as you claim, he doesn't make it close to number 2.

 

I'll have to respond to the rest later but I'll have to single this out.

This isn't true. They had the same number of pro rounds but Terrell had an extensive amateur career prior. Williams didn't.

Fights aren't as important as the number of rounds if the number of fights don't quite match up with the rounds. For example, a guy can have 60 fights against cans, but if they all end in one round. He still has little ring time respective to his number of fights.

Just so I have this clear, Terrell and Williams, KO losses are about equal yet according to you,

What was that you were saying about spectacular double standards?

 

"The reality is Chuvalo didn't develop much beyond what he showed in his first fight with Miteff."

All sorts of things wrong here. First, you are criticizing Chuvalo for getting a draw with the #5 rated heavyweight (coming off a win over Valdes) in his 17th fight before his 21st birthday. Second, you ignore the film evidence of the McMurtry fight that he was still relatively crude compared to where he ended up after McWhorter took over. Third, Chuvalo is being criticized for doing so well when 20. If he flopped totally, like Williams against Satterfield, the case would be stronger that he later improved. What the fight indicated is he had the chin, toughness, and punching power to hang with a tough rated fighter very early in his career.

"home town decision"

You certainly hammer this.. You don't mention that Williams' draw with Machen was in Williams' hometown.

"Williams is 11, while Chuvalo is 16." "Williams is 13, while Chuvalo is #16 again"

Ballpark with my rating. If you agree with those ratings, we don't have that much of a disagreement.

"Cleroux is #38"

That doesn't really sound reasonable. Where was Terrell rated? Or Machen? After all, losing to Manuel Ramos might be considered worse than losing to DeJohn. I don't want to overrate Cleroux, but his record deserves more than that rating. One off night does not negate a career.

Patterson's "decision to fight Chuvalo"

Why not? The winner would get Ali if he beat Liston. Why would anyone care about Terrell? He won his "title" by beating Machen who was coming off a loss to Patterson. He defended against Chuvalo, coming off a loss to Patterson, and Jones, who was KO'd by Chuvalo. Terrell was totally a cheese champion. It was reasonable for Patterson to aim for a fight with the real champion.

None of this WBA stuff cuts any ice at all. I can at least understand their stripping Robinson when he didn't fight rubber matches against either Fullmer or Basilio. I can understand their position that Moore should give Johnson another shot. I don't agree with their actions but I can at least understand them. Stripping Ali? For defending against Liston? And trying to organize a tournament with Liston victims Williams and Patterson, plus Ali victim Jones, plus Chuvalo, and Terrell, their top contender off splitting with Williams and beating another Liston victim, Folley. This tournament was ridiculous. Doesn't mean the NBA (WBA) was always off the rails, but they obviously were in this case.

Miteff "gave Ali serious trouble in the early rounds"

I just watched this on you tube. It was Ali's 9th pro fight. He was a string bean at 188 lbs. Ali was only 19 and hadn't filled out at all. Miteff weighed 210. it appeared to me Miteff simply missed most of his head punches, often badly. He did do some body work, but I didn't see Ali in any trouble at any time. Miteff ate a lot of punches and was put down in the 6th by a right. He managed to get up but was in no condition to continue. I thought the judge who scored it 25-21 for Ali was accurate. One judge did have Miteff ahead, but for me that is a head-scratcher. The way the fight went shows who was landing the effective punches.

"green and unrated"

Unrated is factual. Fair point on green. Terms like green and prime are sloppy terms with no precise meaning.

"Chuvalo defeated DeJohn at the end of his career"

And Williams never fought him.

"DeJohn . . . defeated Cleroux decisively, which Chuvalo never managed to do."

Chuvalo won a UD over Cleroux, so it is not true he never beat him. I have seen DeJohn and Cleroux. I have not seen Chuvalo and Cleroux, so no way to judge the relative performances. Chuvalo's UD victory was sandwiched between two SD losses to Cleroux.

"The simple fact that Chuvalo's fights against tougher opponents grounded him with exponentially more valuable experience than the guys Williams fought."

So you are criticizing a fighter for fighting tough opposition. And ignoring that tough opponents might take more out of him. Everything is being spun in Williams favor. I don't give a fighter credit for not fighting worthy opponents.

 

Concerning DeJohn's victories over rated fighters Miteff, Powell, Richardson, Hunter, and Cleroux.

"I have zero doubt Williams could've replicated those wins (which he did on two occasions)

I give no credit to a fighter for fights he didn't have. Williams did not do better than DeJohn against Miteff and Richardson--in fact, DeJohn blew Miteff out much more quickly. Williams didn't fight Powell, Hunter, or Cleroux. And ignored is that DeJohn was older than Williams and had fought a lot more tough fights by the time he faced Daniels.

 

"They had the same number of pro rounds"

Close, with only a slight edge to Williams, with three fights apparently missing according to newspapers.

"Terrell had an extensive amateur career."

Here is a summation of Terrell's amateur career from the Chicagoland Sports Hall of Fame profile of Terrell:

"Terrell began his boxing career in 1956 as a sophomore at Farragut High School, winning the Chicago Golden Gloves championship in his debut year. He turned pro in 1957."

Box rec lists three amateur fights. Two wins in Chicago and a loss in New York. At 175.

Doesn't strike me as that extensive.

"Terrell and Williams, both KO losses are about equal."

That can be disputed. Terrell was doing very well against Williams through six, before he was caught, and stopped on his feet. Williams was flattened in three.

 

An off topic aside

"Given your top ten presidential rankings"

My presidential rankings vary very little, but here is my current rankings:

1---Abraham Lincoln
2---Franklin Roosevelt
3---George Washington
4---Dwight Eisenhower
5---Theodore Roosevelt
6---Harry Truman
7---Thomas Jefferson
8---James K. Polk
9---James Monroe
10--John F. Kennedy

The first nine are pretty well set, with perhaps slight variations now and then. At number ten, I would consider Reagan, Lyndon Johnson, and McKinley as reasonable alternatives, and perhaps I have done lists with each of them in 10th place at one time or another.

 

February 1955, Terrell wins the Chicago golden gloves novice division as a 15 year old middleweight.

https://www.newspapers.com/image/372754270/?match=1&clipping_id=176471875

January 1956, a glowing article about how Terrell has improved over the last 12 months.

https://www.newspapers.com/image/372394647/?match=1&clipping_id=176471963

February 1956, Terrell dethrones defending champ Alonzo Joiner to become Chicago light-heavyweight champ.

https://www.newspapers.com/image/372990187/?match=1&clipping_id=176472013

February 1957, Terrell retains his Chicago title.

https://www.newspapers.com/image/372607066/?match=1&clipping_id=176472096
https://www.newspapers.com/image/372607123/?clipping_id=176472106

March 1957, Terrell wins the intercity Golden Gloves and turns pro shortly afterwards.

https://www.newspapers.com/image/757153195/?match=1&clipping_id=176472150

So yes, I think "extensive" is a fair enough word for his amateur career. I can't believe you're still quoting boxrec's listing of three amateur bouts as though he was genuinely fighting in the intercity Golden Gloves in his debut.