Could Sonny Liston have made it undefeated vs Louis title defenses?

He was the guy wih worst losses and just a contender, he was not near the level of even past prime Langford.

 

Jimmy Ellis was the guy smaller than Cooper and Patterson, hardly a CW let alone HW.

Leotis Martin was just contender and the b level, he was not the gatekeeper like Norton or Jimmy Young or even Bonavena, and he wasn't on their level.

So he's a B level contender, nothing more, if he was lucky maybe he would become a gatekeeper like those 3 I mentioned but that's a big If, again we rate fighters on what they did not what they could do.

 

Why are you so fixated on the size of Jimmy Ellis while at the same time overlooking the
smaller size of Jack Dillon and Willie Meehan ?

 

W

Worst losses ? Explain.

 

You’re right to bring up Whitehurst and Machen because they do show that Liston wasn’t some unstoppable wrecking machine against mobile, cagey fighters. Whitehurst in particular was tough and knew how to survive, and Machen boxed to a safety-first plan that Sonny never really solved. Those fights do make me question whether Liston walks through Conn or Walcott the way some people assume.

But I’d still argue there’s a difference between surviving against Liston and winning against him. Conn was brilliant in the first Louis fight but he was also a small heavyweight and I’m not sure he could avoid Sonny’s jab and strength for 15 rounds without getting caught. Walcott, for all his trickery, could be inconsistent and had his own lapses, and we know Liston could punish mistakes when he got his man in range.

I also take your point about Louis being superior against movers. His handspeed, precision and ability to cut off the ring were world class. He had more success against guys like Pastor and Ramage than I think Sonny would. Liston did have that long, punishing jab but he didn’t have Louis’s combination punching or ability to finish quickly once he had someone hurt.

On conditioning, I agree Louis was the better late-round fighter. He proved he could pull out wins in deep water. Liston’s record doesn’t inspire the same confidence there, especially considering how he faded against Ali (though that was much later and against a very different style).

So I’d say you make a strong case for why stopping Conn or Walcott isn’t a given. If Liston wins those fights it’s probably by grinding them down over the distance rather than blasting them out early. The only one I think he might stop is Conn, just because of the size disparity. Against Walcott, I’d lean towards a decision too.

 

You never know because many champions can look destined to reign a long time yet, for whatever reason, there only seems to be one or two championship performances in them.

seems unfair to surmise a champion who was like this, in real life, would somehow produce more performances (than he actually did in real life) against another champions run of challengers. This seems a little unfair toward the legacy of the great Joe Louis if you ask me. A champion who proved reliable and consistent for many more years.

 

Harry Wills wasn't "near the level of even past prime Langford", apart from the 13 times he beat him.

 

Probably if they were forced to HW but Dempseys likely instead the best LHW of the era…he has an out from the SHW meat grinder… Liston likely never sniffs a belt if he goes up against a modern HW division with no Floyd Patterson to wrestle the belt from.

 

And what logic do you base that on ?

 

Base what on?

 

Come on man, your assertion that Liston wouldn't get a sniff of the heavyweight-title now.Explain.

 

Nice one mate !

 

He’s a pip squeak with slow hands and a style made for being a bigger guy, he didn’t box like Louis though we insist … he didn’t possess a great chin and his power is untested against guys the size of say Whyte etc he was a deadly combo - the size of a cruiserweight with the speed and boxing ability of a SHW.

 

I wouldn't describe any man with the upper body dimensions of Lennox Lewis as a ' pip-squeak '. I suppose
you regard Oleksandr Usyk as a total midget.Didn't possess a great chin? Absorbed the best punches from such notable hitters as Cleveland Williams,Mike DeJohn and Nino Valdes.The boxing ability of a SHW ? In that case Liston would be the most skillful superheavyweight in history.
So his power wasn't tested against guys the size of Whyte ? How about the job Povetkin did on Whyte ?
And please don't tell me Povetkin punched as hard as Liston.

 

So you’re jumping hoops? - Povetkin is more proven… he is not a stand in for Liston he’s also bigger and on PED’s so who knows? You’ve got a lot of faith in Listons chin when he admitted Williams almost KO’d him? Valdez was shot, Valdez though used to abuse Liston in sparring it was a grudge match and all three including De John (do you have film of that fight?) were under 220lbs at there bests, did you forget Ali KO’d / stopped him with ease? - pipsqueak sized HW’s stand them next to AJ, Whyte, Rahman etc they’d look like boys. Usyk is small, Usyk is also bigger than Liston at 6ft3 and 223lbs at his best and Liston was… 211lbs vs Machen his arguable best win, Usyk doesn’t fight like a guy who outweighed his best opponents by 20lbs he fights “small” for a reason.