The rope a dope was “on the spot”?

Seamus · Jul 16, 2025 at 6:17 AM

Journeyman92 said: ↑

I respectfully disagree with you if the implication is Foreman put Ali in that position, Foreman fought Ali’s fight not vice versa MA was a superior ring general… in the opening round unprovoked Ali B-lines straight for the ropes and proceeds to beat Foreman like a bad habit after coming out aggressive - JCC Snr and Toney did this, follow them around, be aggressive for a spurt then walk it back and let the dummy follow you.
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You seem to be one of the few who has a proper read on that fight. It's amazing how many supposed fans of the sport can only regurgitate the drivel produced by omnibus sportswriters of the 70's in their booze induced laziness.

ThatOne · Jul 16, 2025 at 7:02 AM

ThatOne said: ↑

Archie Moore saw what was going on. He talked about it for Sports Illustrated's story about the fight. Bob Sheridan saw it too around the fifth round as he was doing blow by blow announcing. By then it was too late.
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What Sports Illustrated let happen to their archives is a disgrace. Some of the greatest boxing writers like Mark Kram, Pat Putnam, and Tex Maule appeared in their pages. I found the issue that has a recount of the Rumble and go to it, only to discover the link is broken. That article is where Archie Moore discusses Ali's strategy and how Foreman failed to address it. IMO he was checkmated, not only Ali was a smart mover, he was strong as an oxe.

nyterpfan · Jul 16, 2025 at 7:46 AM

ThatOne said: ↑

In 1974, a matter of hours after Muhammad Ali beat George Foreman in the Rumble in the Jungle, Hugh McIlvanney, who wrote for the Observer for more than 30 years up to 1993, headed to Ali’s villa and was granted an extraordinary two-hour audience with the world champion …

....

“The trick was to make him think he was the baddest man in the world and everybody had to run from him. Truth is I could have killed myself dancin’ against him. He’s too big for me to keep moving round him. I was a bit winded after doin’ it in the first round, so I said to myself: ‘Let me go to the ropes while I’m fresh, while I can handle him there without gettin’ hurt. Let him burn himself out. Let him blast his ass off and pray he keeps throwin’. Let it be a matter of who can hit who first, and that’s me.’ This was a real scientific fight, a real thinkin’ fight. For me it was. Everythin’ I did had a purpose.

“There he was wingin’ away and all the time I was talkin’ to him sayin’: ‘Hit harder, George. That the best you got? They told me you had body punches but that don’t hurt even a little bit. Harder, sucker, swing harder. You the champion and you gettin’ nowhere. Now I’m gonna jab you.’

“Then pop! I’d stick him with a jab. ‘I’m gonna jab you again sucker,’ I’d say and there it’d go. Pop! ‘Nothin’ you can do about it, sucker.’ He didn’t like gettin’ hit with those punches. You see his head go on his shoulders, you see it turn every time I connected? And when did I miss?

“I’d jab, then give him a right cross, then finish with a jab. Nobody expects you to finish a combination with a jab. Those punches took the heart away from George. Joe Frazier mighta taken them but they sickened George. When he did all that talkin’ about concentratin’ on his defence because he was scary about takin’ punishment, people thought he was just a big man kiddin’ along. But he really don’t like punishment and I proved it.

“By the fifth round, you remember when I leaned back on the ropes and gave him all the free shots he wanted and he couldn’t do nothin’ to bother me, by then I knew George had shot his load. I knew he was through.”

Ali’s eyes lifted suddenly and he smiled at Aunt Coretta and Lanna Shabazz, who had winced and drawn in their breath as he talked of that fifth round. “Were you scared when I let him punch away at me like that? It weren’t nothin’. He weren’t hittin’ no spots, no place vital where he could hurt me. I was leanin’ back over the ropes with my head out of the way and my arms was savin’ me from real damage on the body. If he’d hurt me I’d have moved. I knew what I was doin’. You know I wouldn’t go in there to let no street fighter mess me around.”

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/mar/05/hugh-mcilvanney-muhammad-ali-rumble-in-the-jungle
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Best analysis of the "rope a dope" I've seen--and fitting that it came straight from the master himself!!

ThatOne · Jul 16, 2025 at 8:02 AM

nyterpfan said: ↑

Best analysis of the "rope a dope" I've seen--and fitting that it came straight from the master himself!!
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What makes it special is it's a contemporaneous account of the match.

FrankinDallas · Jul 16, 2025 at 8:19 AM

"Every plan breaks down when it meets the enemy ". Except Ali's plan worked perfectly.

Barrf · Jul 16, 2025 at 8:24 AM

nyterpfan said: ↑

Best analysis of the "rope a dope" I've seen--and fitting that it came straight from the master himself!!
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Yeah, he knew exactly what he was doing. Ended up a solid strategy. Love when fighters explain things like this.

As an example, I always wanted an explanation from Holmes of his "stand in the corner" strategy when older. I'm pretty sure I knew what he was doing, but I'd have wanted to hear him explain it. Don't think he ever did.

ThatOne · Jul 16, 2025 at 8:38 AM

Barrf said: ↑

Yeah, he knew exactly what he was doing. Ended up a solid strategy. Love when fighters explain things like this.

As an example, I always wanted an explanation from Holmes of his "stand in the corner" strategy when older. I'm pretty sure I knew what he was doing, but I'd have wanted to hear him explain it. Don't think he ever did.
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If the SI archives weren’t ----ed up we could have got the view from Foreman's corner.

OddR · Jul 16, 2025 at 8:40 AM

If anything if it was on the spot that makes it more impressive.

Dempsey1238 · Jul 16, 2025 at 9:26 AM

scartissue said: ↑

Of course it was spontaneous. Ali himself said after the first round that he realized he could not stay on his toes for an extended period and he punctuated the fact that he was a thinking fighter by coming up with a plan that did not expend much energy and allowed him to counter off the ropes. Even in blocking shots, however, that will take a toll on the body down the road. But in the Foreman fight in particular, I realized after the 5th round what Ali was doing. And if I saw it, what was Dick Sadler seeing? Clearly they had only one way of fighting and couldn't adapt the way Ali did.
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Archie Moore tried that when Marciano and Moore got batter down, perhaps the same would of been true for Foreman?

McGrain · Jul 16, 2025 at 9:50 AM

No, he'd been working on something like it for years, so I don't think you could call it spontaneous. Some of the detail might have been though and it clearly wasn't his first idea (KO1 was his first idea). Talk about out of the frying pan into the fire.

mcvey · Jul 16, 2025 at 12:19 PM

McGrain said: ↑

No, he'd been working on something like it for years, so I don't think you could call it spontaneous. Some of the detail might have been though and it clearly wasn't his first idea (KO1 was his first idea). Talk about out of the frying pan into the fire.
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Ali had been laying on the ropes in sparring letting his spar mates tune up on him for years,he believed it conditioned his body to take punishment.
That said ,I think the rope a dope against George was improvised on the spot.

Journeyman92 · Jul 16, 2025 at 3:05 PM

themaster458 said: ↑

“Big” Toney would have done it better
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In all seriousness yes he would have, Foreman would’ve gassed just as if not quicker, Ali was lever guarding, clinching, steering him around etc - against JT he’d be missing huge shots.

Journeyman92 · Jul 16, 2025 at 3:05 PM

McGrain said: ↑

No, he'd been working on something like it for years, so I don't think you could call it spontaneous. Some of the detail might have been though and it clearly wasn't his first idea (KO1 was his first idea). Talk about out of the frying pan into the fire.
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Precisely, he’d also been doing it sparring for years, I remember him laying on the ropes against Frazier at some stages of the fight too.

Journeyman92 · Jul 16, 2025 at 3:20 PM

Seamus said: ↑

You seem to be one of the few who has a proper read on that fight. It's amazing how many supposed fans of the sport can only regurgitate the drivel produced by omnibus sportswriters of the 70's in their booze induced laziness.
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I’ve been reading posts as far back as the early 2000s confused as a MF-er at what fight these people have been watching… even now I’m still wondering, I’m even more confused at the nebulous polishing act done by amateur poets here about every single basic thing done in the ring they recognise. I like when you post, we don’t agree a lot but you get boxing.

ThatOne · Jul 16, 2025 at 3:38 PM

McGrain said: ↑

No, he'd been working on something like it for years, so I don't think you could call it spontaneous. Some of the detail might have been though and it clearly wasn't his first idea (KO1 was his first idea). Talk about out of the frying pan into the fire.
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There's a youtube where Cus D'amato tells Angie he's concerned how much punishment Ali is taking in sparring and Angie tells Cus it's purposeful.

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