Usyk is the most skilled heavyweight of all time

I don't think the point of this thread is that he beats Ali (if I am reading it right) only that he is more technically skilled. And I don't think anyone debates that. Ali had a very unorthodox style which worked because of speed and reflexes early, plain old toughness later.

 

The old Mongoose just turned in his grave.

 

Yeah this is true Ali did alot of things technically wrong like RJJ did but both were athletically very gifted and naturally talented that they made it work.

Like for example you wouldn't go to a gym and get trainer to teach you how to fight like Ali or RJJ because they're on a different level to most human beings in regards to speed/talent/athleticism that you can't replicate it.

It's like comparing apples to oranges Usyk is technically one of the best Heavyweights of all no question by Ali is certainly one of the most athletically gifted Heavyweights of all time.

 

The Mongoose got killed in his last fight when Charles Bronson threw him off a train

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Yeah, I was going to mention RJJ, specifically how his fight against Toney was sold as being a war of speed and talent against knowledge and technical skill.

 

26 lost rounds in 8 HW fights. 3.25 rounds a fight. 9 to the guy Dubois beat so easy. 10 to the guy who almost handed the lineal HW title to an MMA fighter.

Most skilled we've ever seen.

 

I just watched the ko. Beautiful.

He avoids a big right (the kind that ko'd AJ) and counters either a left hook. Textbook boxing.

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Usyk’s usually been the B-side and the away fighter. He also picks his battles; he will sometimes let a round go and play defence to conserve stamina and dominate down the stretch. He’s the greatest HW tactician, that’s beyond any shadow of a doubt now.

in regards to losing rounds, Ali was dominated by Frazier 1 and Norton 1. He didn’t just drop rounds, he lost fights by clear margins and got gift decisions in others. Yet many would claim he was the most skilled, perhaps you would too.

 

Its Frazier and Norton. Ali fought in the single most respected era of HW. Usyk did not. Ali also had the 60s before that where he utterly decimated lesser opponents. Usyk does not. This is everything Usyks done at HW.

Yes Ali at the peak of the 70s had a higher round droppage rate then Usyk(one of the reasons I don't have him as the GOAT btw I don't ignore it). Its the 70s. Otherwise that'd be terrible. Joshua, Fury and probably Dubois do not deserve the respect and deference as Alis best opponents.

 

The 70’s is hugely overrated because the American media machine is among the most powerful forces on the planet.

Frazier and Norton would get Foreman beat downs from Joshua and Dubois, without mentioning Fury or anyone else.

Rounds dropped rate is a flawed metric for judging skill for many reasons, one being that you can win rounds for having other advantages, such as size or power. Usyk is clearly more skilled than Fury but the former lost rounds to Chisora, not due to inferior skill but size, strength etc.

 

Objectively he is more skilled. So is Holyfield, Ali was more unorthodox, agile and awkward

 

Ali is athletically gifted, but technically, he is not as good as Usyk.

Ali got dropped numerous times in his career and got a big break against Cooper. Guys like Cooper wouldn't be able to touch Usyk because he is so far behind in terms of skill. Once Ali's athletic skills degraded, he was a sitting duck.

Usyk has never been dropped and his technique is so solid that he's schooling much bigger fighters in his late 30's.

Usyk is a top 3 heavyweight all time. You can argue that Ali is the greatest heavyweight, but there is a strong argument that Usky is most skilled of them all.

 

I think it is compared to the 30s. But the top 10 of the 70s had 3 guys remain relevant into the late 90s. Its the gold standard at HW that anyone livings seen. And while I think the 30s and 40s were better than the 70s in many ways a lot of that is hypothetical because of WW2 and because top contenders did not stick around to have classics after losing to Joe Louis.

As mentioned in the 70s Ali gave the British and Euros their shot as did Holmes. America dominated HW from the 30s to the 90s. While at the end some of that was institutional most of that was real. I'm no fan of Americas cultural influence in the late 20th century. But they did not scam the world into thinking the best HWs were Americans. The Americans won the fights that led to their hegemony in boxing fair and square no different than the Soviets winning their Chess championships. Another part of that is the US has a larger population than any other boxing nation. The UK has less than a third of the population. Its a lot harder to justify boxing everyone out.

You win the fight by winning rounds. Knockdowns aside if you win more rounds you win the fight. Its a good metric for measuring a fighters superiority over their opponent in that fight and if you are always losing a lot of rounds it means one of two things. A)these are amazing ATGs who'd beat anyone else or B)a champs not that much better. Long time champions only lose a bunch of rounds once and awhile.

In isolation the Chisora fight isn't a big deal. It can be forgiven. It was Usyks HW debut Chisoras great at fighting everyone close.

 

Ali was more gifted than Usyk physically.