Did Ali ruin Terrell?

I think so, yes. Mentally more than anything. Ali gava him a beating but at 27 and not too many wars behind him, he should be able to come back from that physically, so my guess is that his confidence and motivation were shot

It should also be noted thet he was put in there aginst a top 5 contender in his next fight. Not ideal for someone who has just suffered such a blow to his confidence. If he had had two, three easy touches to build his confidence back, maybe things would have looked different.

 

I agree. Especially after Ernie reading all the pundits comments,pre-fight,regarding him being capable of giving Ali the toughest battle since the first Sonny Liston fight but ultimately being treated as a sparring partner on fight night.

 

Worst than a sparring partner - in sparring, the goal is to get honest, hard work, there is a mutual respect.

Ali treated Terrell like a little brother who tries to embarrass you in front of the girls at secondary school and so you have to whip him to make sure he never effs with you again. That was pure contempt, dominance and a boxing example of eff around and find out!

 

In the years between the Spencer and Merritt fights he seemed like he was fine though he took some time off. He had cases to win both the Ramos and Wepner fights and he knocked out Jose Luis Garcia.

Its hard to say because the book turning from the 60s to the 70s was never going to be a friendly transition for Terrell. If Ali didn't "ruin Terrell" how much better would the backend of his career have went? It was still going to be the backend of his career. Even if he'd won the WBA tournament how much better off was Terrell going to be by late 1973? Jimmy Ellis never won a fight after Terrells retirement.

 

I don't think Thad Spencer was a bad showing at all. Terrell got off the deck to drop Spencer and fought competitively throughout the rest of the fight.

 

Terrell said when they were sparring partners in 1962 he roughed up Ali so bad they kicked him out of camp. Angie said it didn't happen like that. ON EDIT-I'm not certain about the exact year but i'm virtually certain it was pre-Liston.

 

Yeah, I would expect Terrell to say something similar - I would also expect Angie to dispute it.

We will never know the reality unless we were there or spoke to eyewitnesses and it really doesn't matter.

I once grappled with a kru who fought for a British MMA title and won on everything but the scorecards (his victim was a posterboy for the organisation at the time). I weigh significantly more than him so got the better of him for a good round or two. You know what happened when he got annoyed with me muscling him into unleveraged positions? He got serious for a second, took my ankle and gave me a warning.

Sparring can never replicate the unique situation of being in a real fight for all the chips - makes me laugh when we hear the alleged sparring stories that don't have a multitude of corroboration. Even if I saw it, what does it really mean?

 

I don't think so.
1967. Terrell took a 15 round beating from Ali. Terrell took on a good Thad Spencer only 6 months later and lost. Spencer was a good fighter. Then Terrell lost a decision to Manuel Ramos 2 months later, but the decision wasn't necessarily a good one.

I think "ruined" is a stretch. I don't think being taunted made a difference. These things always seem worse for the crowd. When a boxer is getting beat he's just getting beat. It's annoying getting hit and getting no chances to land a punch but it's a fight and in a fight you don't have time to reflect deeply on it. It can effect a top boxer when he discovers he's not the best and actually the best boxer is a lot better but it's natural to think you weren't at your best on that night. What effected Terrell most, during and probably for a while after, would be the injury he got to his eye. That effects because the pain is real and it impacts your ability to see punches coming, and blindness is a thing, that weighs on a person's mind, no doubt.
But Ali talking ****? No, probably didn't really register. That's more a story for the audiences and writers, because they have to rationalize and grapple morally with the apparent cruel intentions and one-sidedness of the spectacle they indulge in. But for the fighter getting beat up, it's a fight. He's not there expecting kindness. Ali was known to have a big mouth and that wouldn't stop in a fight.

 

Yeah, losing to another top contender doesn't have to mean anything, but then Ramos after that...

With the run he was on before Ali you wouldn't expect him to lose both. But maybe it was the loss to Spencer coming directly after the schooling from Ali that did him in. Or maybe he was a bit unlucky with the decisions. Haven't watched those fights, but maybe should give them a peek.

 

Well I'd say Terrell was ruined after that fight but the ruination had two components . Before the Ali fight Terrell was on a 15 fight win streak that included victories over Zora Folley, Cleveland Willaims, Eddie Machen, George Chuvalo, Doug Jones and Bob Foster. Thats more than a solid list. Besides Ali his management bears immense blame for his downfall. To fight a good fighter like Spencer only 6 months after a brutal beating like that was criminal. The corner had a good case to stop the Ali fight as well but did nothing . I also read where he had vision problems after the Ali fight , he should have taken a year off and came back against low level opposition but he went on and eventually lost to Chuck Wepner,,geez!

 

If you look at the WBA tournament lineup from Terrels teams perspective would Spencer not be the "weak link" that you'd be happy to draw in the 1st round? With Alis exile they really had no reason to think they couldn't recoup Terrells belt.

Terrell took 3 years off after the Ramos fight. Ali also almost lost to Chuck Wepner. Besides Ali how many guys from their era were still competing at a high level in late 1973? Those 3 years he spent on the sideline(needed or not) were 3 of the last years he was a viable HW contender.

 

Is 138-129, 136-130, and 136-129, busting open your opponent's face, and stopping him while he's prostrate on the ropes almost losing?

 

Exactly why tape is so important.

Off topic but this is exactly why I struggle to rate Greb at the top like some do. Oft repeated or in this case, seldom uttered matter of fact is quickly disproven by those who have eyes to see once they watch the tape.