Sonny Liston Thread

Spot on comments regarding Liston's ring craftsmanship. The venerable Ray Arcel was quoted as saying that Sonny's technical skills were overlooked because of his power and that he was a great boxer. That's a pretty lofty endorsement IMHO!!

 

I don’t think I’d call him a “great” boxer but he was very solid in many aspects, just a touch small and slow.

 

He was absolutely a great boxer with very underrated ring IQ, and a multi-faceted jab.

Janitor puts it very well here.

"What separates him from most of the other great heavyweight punchers, is that if you took away his power, he would still have been an exceptional fighter. "

That line really stands out to me. Liston is one of the rare few who’d still be an all-time great even if you stripped away his biggest strength.

 

Liston was underrated and under-appreciated. The sports media were very harsh towards him, especially Larry Merchant. America wasn’t ready to accept an ex-con as HW champ. Sonny also lacked the charisma and was cast as a mean, ru5kess killer. He was actually a quiet man who kept to himself and was always kind to fans and children. My unpopular opinion is that both his Ali fights were fixed.

 

Oddly enough Liston was said to be a charismatic and funny guy off the cameras!

 

Hi Buddy.
Brings a wry smile to my old face when you say Liston was a touch small, around the early 60s he was considered a fairly big HW, and a brooding menace, his predecessors, Patterson, Marciano, Walcott, Charles, were not particularly big fighters, so Sonny was seen as a big man in comparison, again his movement might have been slow, some might say economical,but his hand speed was good for a HW, and as a few of the guys have stated, he was not the ogre the press would have us believe, strangely enough he was very much like Ali, in his love for children, and although not known as a speaker, he has said some thought provoking things, not least when told by reporters that Floyd had signed for a return, and said reporters were as one decrying his actions, Liston told them " who can tell a bird it can't fly " history rightly has been kinder to him than at the time he was on the scene, in some photos you can see both sadness and and a look of loneliness on his sombre features.
stay safe J92, chat soon buddy.
Mike.

 

Some brief vision of Liston training for his ‘68 fight vs Henry Clark: -

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Harry Carpenter: Keep Liston Away From Our Boxers (1961).

Lol. Harry being honest. Nice, quick read.

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Found an interesting tale of the tape for Patterson vs Liston 1 (see below).

Interesting because it details Liston’s reach as being 79”.

However, it also lists Sonny as standing 6’2” with 13 3/4” fists. So a bit all over the place. It would be interesting to find another tale of the tape that predates it.

Now, if other fighters fists were 13” as claimed, I would calculate Liston’s fists to be somewhat in excess of 13 3/4”.

There are some other tales of the tape that list both 14” and 14 1/2” fists for Liston.

It seems his fist size was jumped up to 15 1/2” around the time of the Patterson fights - so too were his biceps, from 16 1/2” to 17 1/2”.

Sonny hands were irrefutably, well oversized in proportional terms, very long fingers in particular.

Many personally acquainted with Sonny, commented on his extraordinary fist size , including Foreman who had no mean mitts himself (the 12” or 12 1/2” listings for George were/are a joke).

George’s hands appeared to be huge and many who met him in person testified to same.

Liston was shorter than both Williams and Ali by about 1” - 1 1/2” but imo, proportionally, his arms still appeared that much longer theirs - even though Liston had thicker arms which could take from the perception of his reach.

Of course such stats can be inaccurate. Not literally measured by a third party - rather, simply supplied by a fighter and/or his team or causally measured.

Of course Liston was listed as having an 80 1/2” reach for the Martin fight in ‘69 - so a 1 1/2” mark up on the ‘62 reach detailed in the link below.

Ali’s reach was likely 78 1/2”to 79” but he even received a “mark up” to 82” for the Liston fight - an ante up of sorts to more closely approximate him to Liston’s 84” listing I would guess.

Possible inaccuracies notwithstanding, the full tales of the tape used to be an interesting/fun sidebar for discussion - but they went by the wayside a long time ago.

All in all, and it’s a guesstimate - I think Liston’s reach was closer to 82 1/2” - and there are several articles in fact that listed Sonny’s reach being exactly as such.

@SolomonDeedes , if you don’t mind, do you happen to have further details to flesh out Liston’s stats and what’s your own opinion on same?

Thanking you in advance.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1962-referee-magazine-floyd-patterson-4848962766

 

Well, I've never seen that 79" figure before. The standard tale of the tape printed in the press for that fight gives Liston's reach as 84" and his height as 6'1", and those were the numbers most often given for the rest of his career.

https://ibb.co/7d7HWFnh

As you say, these tales of the tape aren't very consistent - not for Liston, and not for many other fighters either. He was usually 6'1", but sometimes 6'2". His reach was mostly 84", but sometimes 82". His fists were pretty consistently 14" but could occasionally be as much as 15.5". Generally I assume that the measurements are, if anything, exaggerated, and it's the lower numbers that are closer to the truth.

 

Thanks for your response.

Yes, it was the first time I’d seen the 79” measurement also. Though some posters had previously said they’d seen 78”/79” listings without providing a source.

Interesting that prior to Ali facing Liston, Joe Louis said to Ali that he (Ali) had the longer reach - but even accepting that Louis might’ve seen the 79” for Liston, that didn’t really make sense - 79” was Ali’s own listing prior to Ali’s reach being bumped up to 82” for the Liston fight - unless Louis swallowed the 82” listing.

I agree re exaggerations and lower figs being likely more accurate.

Just imo, I’d guess 82” to 82 1/2” being more on the money. Visually , I can’t reconcile Sonny’s reach to have only been 79” or even 80 1/2” as per the listing for the Leotis Martin fight.

Interesting that Williams’ fists were also listed as 14” - and while he did appear to have sizeable mitts, Sonny’s mitts still appeared that much bigger.

 

Came across another rarity that I hadn’t seen before. Short clip of Sonny on The Ed Sullivan Show: -

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Marvin Hart was pretty great too, being a heavyweight. They say he was cursed and had a "wood-knocking finger" which was long, bony, skeletal and that he would tap his finger constantly on trees, until echolocation or something like it would tell him that there was a grub or baby wormlike sluggish thing could be found within the depths of the fibers of the tree's innards, 'neath the bark and glory, frightened, naked, afraid and sick with envy. Then, Hart would use another finger with a sharp nail that was super thin and push it through the tree, puncturing it like a man having thin-dong intercourse with a woman and hooking the grub, pulling it out and eating it for his supper, to replenish his manna for the fight ahead of him. It was his every-camp training ritual, that Marvin Hart. Aye, aye, it twas. But you won't hear about that on any old ordinary Liston thread. Liston never ate like that.

 

I have heard he liked children and could be kind Liston actually made the effort to spend time with the son he had outside his marriage he’d buy the neighbourhood kids icecream on the visit… whilst history could be kinder he was still a thug who terrorised innocent people, robbing and beating folks for petty change… once he pulled a woman over disguised as a cop to do… what? Yes SL was pretty witty the funniest people in the world can be found in prison. Much like all of us he was a flawed man but more flawed then the average… only as an athlete could I admire a mobsters cash cow… Lincoln once said “they’re only us in different circumstances” who knows what we’d be in his shoes? I hope he found peace but I wouldn’t have cared to meet him and it is amusing isn’t it? Look at the progression of American football players size the same has happened at HW a 215lbs 6ft man would be “wee sized” compared to the hippo weight fighters now.