Do you think Cooney was ever the no. 2 guy in the heavyweight division?

His wins are Ken Norton and Jimmy Young.

Norton had 1-1-1 in his last 3 fights.
Young had lost 4 of his last 7 fights.

 

Sometimes the talent exceeds the resume, just look at Fury.

 

Winning fights is the only thing that matters. Fighters shouldn't get ranked based on an admirer telling the world they have "talent". It is meaningless.

On the night Fury beat Klitschko he could definitely be awarded the status of #1 in world. He beat the #1 man who had not lost a fight in 11 years.
That's his credentials right there.

Cooney beat a couple of fading/faded boxers who were down to mid or lower top 10, other low ranked boxers had recently beat or drawn with them as well.
How can we translate that to being #2 in world?

Cooney was a nice guy and a nice puncher to watch and it's good to remember him. I can't see any reason to think of him as #2 at any time.

 

I don't think Cooney was ever number 2 TBH.

When Weaver was champion Cooney was always clearly below him Weaver just had more impressive scalps over the likes of Coetzee, Tate, Tillis undefeated, etc.

And then when Dokes beat Weaver he took Weaver's place as number 2 with Cooney still below Dokes.

 

Trevor Berbick beat John Tate, Muhammad Ali and Greg Page between June 1980 and June 1982. And went 15 rounds with peak Larry Holmes. In that time frame. And some other wins.
People will shudder at the mention of his fight with Ali, but Cooney's done nothing except prey on "shot" fighters.

In roughly the same time frame, Cooney faced Young, Lyle and Norton. That's it.

It's like someone knocking out Deontay Wilder, Joe Joyce and Dereck Chisora over the next 18 months.

 

Yes. As a big fan in 1980, I can say as of November 1980 (just after Cooney broke Ron Lyle's ribs and stopped him in one to notch his 24th win, followed the next day by the 13-round punchfest between Weaver and Coetzee), the vast majority of boxing fans (according to letters in boxing magazines at the time - our boxing forums) felt Gerry Cooney was the second-best heavyweight in the world.

That lasted until Holmes and Cooney fought in June 1982. That's why the fight was so huge. (A $10 million purse for a challenger in 1982 was insane. No heavyweight in boxing history - champion or challenger - had made $10 million for one fight ever. )

Weaver may have been WBA champion, and as such was rated as champ by one of the two orgs, but he'd also lost A LOT (nine times to be exact, to go with his 23 wins). Hell, Cooney had more wins than Weaver at that point.

Weaver was supposed to fight Cooney in 1981, and Weaver would've been an underdog, but through a myriad of bizarre shenanigans by various people, it was blocked and Quick Tillis got a shot at Weaver instead. And that defense did nothing to boost Weaver at all. Especially after Cooney wasted Norton, also in one round.

So, if you're looking for a timeframe, Cooney was considered the #2 guy by most folks for about a year and a half (November 1980 to June 1982).

That was Cooney at his peak. He was a household name at that point, which seems bizarre now. But he was a bigger sports star in the US with casual fans and mainstream sports fans than Holmes was when they stepped in the ring.

 

Cooney was hyped as the #2 because he was box office gold.
It is debatable whether Jimmy Young was even among the top 12 when Cooney beat him. Norton was only lower top 10 because he had split decisioned Tex Cobb.

There were other heavyweights in the exact same time frame with better or more wins. Fans knew that at the time but Cooney was an attractive prospect.

 

Cooney was hyped because he was exciting and he was blowing out name fighters.

The other young fighters were struggling or losing. Simple as that.

In October 1980, when Cooney demolished Lyle and broke his ribs to become the #1 contender in the WBC and WBA, the other guys weren't exactly kicking down the door.

Mike Weaver had a belt but had lost a lot (nine times), including a title fight to Holmes. Dokes fought a draw in 1980 with Ocasio. Berbick was 16-1-1 when Cooney stopped Lyle. Berbick had a shock stoppage win over Tate (which got him a title shot with Holmes the next year), but he had also been KOed in one by Mercado and Berbick hadn't fought Ali, Holmes, or Page yet. Mercado also lost in October 1980, to Leon Spinks. Page had appeared to lose but squeaked by on points against unheralded George Chaplin in 1980. Page had beaten NO ONE by October 1980.

You're looking at it knowing what would happen a year or two or three down the road.

That hadn't happened yet.

At the time, Cooney stood out from the others because he was demolishing people. Simple as that.

Everyone likes KOs. Fans were no different back then.

 

Sure. They do love KOs. They love excitement.
Gerrie Coetzee KO Leon Spinks in 1 round, the same Leon Spinks who beat Ali and went 15 with him the previous year. It was quite a big deal. A devastating TKO. A shocker.
Weaver KO'd Tate (Undefeated, skillful big man, who had beat Coetzee) spectacularly in 15th round KO.followed up with devastating KO of Coetzee in a thrilling fight. Quality opposition.
Ocasio was a good fighter who beat Young twice. Dokes drew with him but devastatingly KO him in 1 round soon after.
Page had exciting KOs of Evangelista and LeDoux on the Holmes-Spinks and Ali-Berbick undercards.
Boxing fans love it all.

The difference between Cooney and those guys was not being able to entertain and excite. Maybe he had an indefinable 'X' factor, a charisma. Cynics would say that he was the only one of those KO-producing who fit the equation: PUNCHER + AMERICAN + WHITE. Fightng out of New York didn't hurt either, with Big Media, in those days. Cooney was sold hard, and far and wide. On a few minutes or few seconds of action, some might even say, against guys who were losing, even being KO'd already by other boxers.

 

Hard to say, Cooney lived fast and died young. He breezed through the beating up journeymen / old named legends phase, then crashed into a brick wall against Holmes and was never the same after.

Passed the eye test for me though, most ranked HWs of that era were all flash and no substance, cheap ali knock-offs. Cooney was big, fast-handed, hit like a truck and he was underrated in the skill department with his jab, combination-punching and bodywork. Unfortunately he was thrown into a lion too early.

 

Cooney was never going to be a long time contender or champion, When he received millions of dollars for the Holmes fight he had accomplished his goal of financial security and never really did anything after that but collect 2 paychecks in his lackluster efforts against Spinks and Foreman. One other note on this, I'd have like to have seen Cooney with a much better trainer and team to manage his career.

 

Officially no. From 1980 to 1982 Holmes was linear champion and weaver was both WBA champ and #2 in the world behind Holmes. Was Cooney #2 head to head ? Maybe but it’s a very big question mark. You had a lot of young rising talent around that time period and I’m not sure if Gerry could have beaten all of them or not.

 

I'd have backed Cooney to beat Weaver in '82.

 

I'm just telling you what happened.

I'm not arguing with you. I have suggested in the past that, with hindsight, Trevor Berbick may have been the second-best heavyweight of the first part of the 80s.

But, in 1980, when Cooney became the #1 contender in November 1980, look at the landscape.

Coetzee had just been KOed by Weaver. Weaver had nine losses. Spinks had a KO 1 loss to Coetzee. Dokes had drawn with Ocasio. Tate had been KOed twice that year. Mercado got stopped by Leon in October. Berbick had been KOed in one by Mercado the previous year. Witherspoon had only had five fights. Page had 12 fights and arguably lost one of them to Chaplin. Pinklon Thomas had 14 fights and arguably should've lost to Jerry Williams.

All the names you guys trot out to say had better wins than Cooney HADN'T WON THOSE FIGHTS yet.

That's the trouble with your argument. You know what happened later, but it hadn't happened yet.

Cooney was ahead of them. He got ranked #1 first. He got ranked for beating name guys who were also household names. He was young, undefeated and demolishing fighters fans had watched for years.

Others may have ended up being better than him. But, when he got ranked the #1 contender after stopping Lyle in one round in October 1980, he was a much bigger deal than nearly all of them.

That's what happened.

Hell, Greg Page got highly ranked in 1981 after beating Stan Ward, and Page asked the org to drop him down, because he didn't feel he was ready to compete for the title. In 1980, he certainly wasn't better.

When Cooney became the #1 contender, he had "his pick" of which champ he wanted to fight first. That's how highly he was viewed. He "picked" Weaver, and that seemed all but made, and then the WBA confusingly (due to some shenanigans) insisted Weaver fight Quick Tillis, who was rated lower than Cooney in their ratings, first. And Weaver, who wanted the Cooney payday, didn't impress against Tillis, either. While Cooney demolished Norton in a round.

Had Cooney faced Weaver in 1981, Cooney would've been favored. Because he was considered the second-best heavyweight in the world by most, even though Weaver had a belt.

 

Ossie Ocasio beat the same Young twice to get his shot at Holmes title. Evangelista beat no one to get his shot at Holmes. Weaver had 8 losses and beat no one to get his shot at Holmes. Leroy Jones beat no one to get his shot. LeDeaux was on a 3-fight losing streak when he got his shot.