Is Sonny Liston the most well rounded heavyweight ever on film?

I think he is. At the very least, he is top 3.

Great jab? Check. Long reach? The 84 inches might be an exageration but he likely did have an 81-82 inch reach which is fantastic.

Good right hand? Check.

Outstanding left hook? Check

How good was his punching power? Foreman sparred with an old Liston and said he was amongst the hardest hitters he had ever faced. His power was comparable to a Foreman. Maybe slightly less but up there.

He could box. He showed defensive smarts vs Cleveland Williams.

People argue that his opposition was small. I think that is silly. If Usyk or Holyfield never moved up to heavy, people would have questioned if they had the power to hurt big men and they clearly showed that they did.

Liston is a comparable puncher to Foreman according to those who watched and trained with him. Why would they make it up? If Holyfield and Usyk could succeed vs bigger men, i don't see any reason why a guy like Liston who clearly hit harder than either of them couldn't.

Some people question why some of us rate Liston so highly. Well he could hit almost as hard as Foreman while having boxing ability comparable to Holmes.

Ali was one in a billion athlete. No heavyweight of his size (including Holy, Holmes, Usyk etc.) had the athleticism that Ali did. So the idea that just because a one in a billion athlete was too quick for Liston does not mean that slower than Ali men like Holmes or Holy could dance circles away from him. Ali was just a bad style match up for Liston.

 

Liston also had very Hagler-esque subtle head movement - moved just enough to make them miss.

Watch the first fight with Ali, slow it down and look at how many jabs Liston slips. Ali's success came from doubling and tripling but yes, Liston was extremely well-rounded and was more agile on his feet than given credit for but - footwork and handspeed were areas where you would struggle to argue that he was elite.

 

Liston was clueless when he had to move a bit.

 

I've been banging on about how complete he was for years. Two great posts. For a massive puncher Liston was a superb technician.

 

In terms of overall package, if you squint really hard, Evan has similarities with Sonny.

Doesn't have Sonny's crushing power but could generate a solid left hook when he really sat down on it.

 

I think Joe Louis is it. If you open up a boxing textbook, there is a giant picture of Joe Louis

 

An excellent fighter who unfortunately came up against arguably the greatest heavyweight. This colours people’s opinions unfairly. He matches up very well h2h with just about all heavyweights outside of Ali.

 

You forgot his stamina. He had an extraordinary work rate. He is in my top ten.

 

Sucked at Sudoku.

 

For sure.

 

I always go back to Ray Arcel's comment about Sonny's boxing skill--which he said was exceptional! (To me that's as great a compliment as you can get from anyone given Arcel's decades long career in boxing and the fighters he worked with and saw up close.)

The Sonny Liston that fought Ali in their first fight was older and slower. No excuses, Ali clearly won and Liston did not train adequately as he took him WAY too lightly. (He more or less thought he would beat Ali just by giving him that "death stare" in the ring before the opening bell.)

My all-time hypothetical that I hope I can see someday in the "spirit" realm would be the late 50's very early 60's Sonny fighting the 64-65 version of Ali. I'd still make Ali an 8-5 favorite but he better not get careless even ONCE! (Angelo Dundee said Sonny was a great finisher and he was--when he caught you that was it!!)

 

It’s not that he was so outstanding fundamentally it’s that for someone with the power and size he had which was unsurpassed for his era he also was very solid fundamentally. Thats what made him the best up until Ali came of age.

He fought in an upright conventional style which may give more of a correct impression. That as opposed to someone with greater skill like Tyson but who bobbed and weaved and crouched.

Ali had more boxing skill than anyone around when he was in his prime. This stemmed not just from natural talent of which he had more than anyone but also for the years of hard work to develop himself. He fought for Officer Joe Martins boxing group as a youth but at night he attended another gym where he thought the trainer was better then Martin.

If you want to bring it to current time Usyk would be the best fundamentally ever. Not blessed with natural talent to the extent Ali had he does it with a greater dose of fundamentals. You add that to his great IQ and good size is what allows him to be one of the greatest Heavyweight champs ever

 

Usyk at cruiserweight was as bigger than many of Liston’s best opponents. And a cruiserweight Holyfield that was 190 pounds would have been a heavyweight in Liston’s day. Usyk at cruiserweight was at least as big as Floyd Patterson

 

I thought there'd be a giant picture of Donny Lalonde

 

Is Chan-hee Park the most well rounded flyweight on film?

It isn't Liston's skills that cause people to doubt him.