Is Sonny Liston the most well rounded heavyweight ever on film?

dmt · Oct 5, 2025

Holmes did not have one of the best uppercuts in history. The only time he demonstrated a good uppercut vs a good opponent was vs Weaver.

Holmes had a fine uppercut. ATG uppercuts included the likes of Tyson, Foreman, Lewis etc. And Holmes did not have a remotely good as uppercut as those guys.

Liston did not have a weak right. Liston's right was way more powerful than Holmes. Liston also had more punch variety than Holmes.

I will address the rest of the points later.

Journeyman92 · Oct 5, 2025

bolo specialist said: ↑

Liston never demonstrated greater power than the bulked up versions of Holy or Usyk.

On top of that, Holy bombing out iron-chinned Qawi while weighing w/in 190 was as impressive a display of power as many of Liston's KOs of similarly (under)sized opponents.

Hearsay & sparring stories are never a more reliable metric than what's actually seen & proven in front of our own eyes.

& whether Holy or Usyk hit harder than Lewis or Wilder is a moot point, since Liston never demonstrated power on the same level as either of those fighters either.

There's nothing "clear" & certainly not "considerable" about his power compared to a bulked up Holy or Usyk, & the actual results of his fights actually contradict those claims. He never demonstrated anything remotely like the kind of power that 1-shot starched Buster Douglas or Dubois. The largest opponents that he beat were Wepner & Zech, neither of whom even quite reached 230 lb & both of whom were gradually battered into submission over numerous rnds.

Holmes also had 1 of the best uppercuts in hw history. Conversely, Liston showed only very sporadic power in his right, especially @ close quarters where he had a tendency to club w/ it.

Nunn was well ahead of Toney before the latter pulled the fight out of the fire. Toney was also outboxed/outworked in his very next fight after RJ & many people thought he could've/should've lost @ least 1 of the McCallum fights &/or the Reggie Johnson fight as well. The RJ fight definitely exposed weaknesses that other, less gifted fighters could & did take advantage of.
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Interesting isn’t it with “bulked up” Holyfield? I wonder how his punches would look if he had the same weight advantages Liston had on opponents… his punches were rocking SHW sized guys, he’d likely be a “puncher” after his chemical ascension in another time of 190lbs HWs lol.

newurban99 · Oct 5, 2025

Saintpat said: ↑

OK, where did I say ‘all policemen are paragons of virtue’?

Did you actually read any of the articles you provided? Because I’m missing the part where the officer ‘bragged’ about arresting Liston. The only mention linking him to Liston is the first, in which he is the arresting officer. Nothing about bragging. In fact, the story has a headline about Liston’s ‘court problems’ piling up including this arrest on four counts, an ex-manager suing him and an ex-employee suing him for never being paid money owed while working for a company owned by Liston … is he your ‘paragon’?

As for Snider, who arrested Sonny for driving like 40 mph over the speed limit in a residential neighborhood and found on him a gun (which Sonny admitted to) that was not registered (that’s a crime there at this time) and not having a drivers license (he shouldn’t have been driving) and resisting arrest by trying to escape the vehicle — the officer did not even cuff him but was driving him to the station in back of the police car and called for assistance (which resulted in Sonny being cuffed) after Sonny became belligerent and tried to leave the police car at a stop sign.

The other links allege misconduct by Snider, the officer, like 20 years later. None allege racism. None have anything to do with Sonny Liston.

One of those links is to a lawsuit where the judge entered summary judgments against some of the people sued (meaning the judge ruled for the person suing) … but not Snider. You wanna give me a link to how that lawsuit turned out as far as this particular officer? The other is a long-after-Sonny-was-dead arrest where the officer is charged … but again, nothing about a conviction. So we have some allegations — very serious and troubling ones — but no verdict or judgment against the officer.

(It is worth noting at this point that the well-researched book The Devil and Sonny Liston by Nick Tosches — a very accomplished journalist who also wrote acclaimed biographies of Jerry Lee Lewis and Hall and Oates, among others — presents compelling evidence that Sonny raped more than one woman supported by the fact that he paid them off to keep them from reporting. Seems like he wasn’t a ‘paragon of virtue’ in other ways.)

This Snider quite clearly seems to be a scumbag … but literally nothing you posted suggests Liston was improperly arrested nor that the officer was racist. Hell, nothing here even says the officer ‘bragged’ about arresting Liston, which wtf does that even mean? I bet the officers who arrested Charles Manson probably told people about it, same as any officer who ever arrested any famous person — ‘hey, I’m the guy who arrested the heavyweight champion’ isn’t a crime or even an indictment of their character.

So other than documenting what Sonny was arrested for (and yes he ended up guilty of these charges, the record is clear on that) and that he had some lawsuits against him, what does any of this have to do with whether Sonny was a thug (the record is clear that he was) or whether police were racist?

Keep in mind that Sonny was arrested at least 20 times in his life (and at least one source says more than 100 times!) and it’s very likely that among that many police officers (there are records that make it clear that in more than one case it took more than one officer to subdue him, including the one in the article you linked) there are probably some brave, pure and dedicated men, some outright heroes, and also some scumbags. None of that exonerates Liston of being an actual career criminal and thug.
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Saintpat, I was in Bangkok over the weekend and found a used copy of Nick Tosches' Dean Martin biography "Living High in the Dirty Business of Dreams". He was one of the more original writers of his day. I grabbed it.

The Long Count · Oct 5, 2025

Most well rounded is a little far, his footwork is poor and he’s on the slower side of some elite heavies.

He showed elite level punch variation and the IQ of when to throw what, he’s also extra comfortable in pocket. Great mid range fighter.
He definitely had the offensive tools.

Saintpat · Oct 5, 2025

Journeyman92 said: ↑

Interesting isn’t it with “bulked up” Holyfield? I wonder how his punches would look if he had the same weight advantages Liston had on opponents… his punches were rocking SHW sized guys, he’d likely be a “puncher” after his chemical ascension in another time of 190lbs HWs lol.
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Holyfield knocked Ray Mercer down with a 1-2. That tells me he had power.

Journeyman92 · Oct 5, 2025

Saintpat said: ↑

Holyfield knocked Ray Mercer down with a 1-2. That tells me he had power.
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I thought a body shot sent him? Happy to be corrected…

Saintpat · Oct 5, 2025

Journeyman92 said: ↑

I thought a body shot sent him? Happy to be corrected…
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Looks like we’re both wrong — left hook and a follow left hook and Ray stepped back and took a knee presuming this is it near the end of this highlight reel.

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Journeyman92 · Oct 5, 2025

Saintpat said: ↑

Looks like we’re both wrong — left hook and a follow left hook and Ray stepped back and took a knee presuming this is it near the end of this highlight reel.

This content is protected

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For single shots I really like Holyfields power, really whipped that hook but it just seemed to go when he got rolling with a lot of punches… have you noticed that? That shot fells a lot of HW’s…

Saintpat · Oct 5, 2025

Journeyman92 said: ↑

For single shots I really like Holyfields power, really whipped that hook but it just seemed to go when he got rolling with a lot of punches… have you noticed that? That shot fells a lot of HW’s…
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Just in clips of highlights from this fight you can see he rocks Ray a few times with crisp rights. Evander wasn’t the kind of guy you left after a fight with him and said ‘well that was a pleasant experience.’

Journeyman92 · Oct 5, 2025

Saintpat said: ↑

Just in clips of highlights from this fight you can see he rocks Ray a few times with crisp rights. Evander wasn’t the kind of guy you left after a fight with him and said ‘well that was a pleasant experience.’
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Joey “The Caresser” Maxim on the other hand…

newurban99 · Oct 5, 2025

Holyfield's punches were hard and crisp. He didn't waste motion. He had exemplary balance, positioning and readiness. It almost looked he had studied the physics of boxing. Who in heaven's name trained Evander?

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Is Sonny Liston the most well rounded heavyweight ever on film?

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Is Sonny Liston the most well rounded heavyweight ever on film?

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