Which bummed you out more?

Hi Pugguy.
That's sort of what I was thinking, when I was responding to the good poster that is @roughdiamond, Ali only had the very short Quarry fight and Bonavena before Frazier, and as you say, gave Frazier the the fight of his life, and for me that says volumes about Ali.
stay safe buddy, chat soon buddy.
Mike.

 

You're forgetting the fact that if it wasn't for the exile, Ali would have fought Frazier in 1968 or 1969 at the latest. Frazier wouldn't be as experienced as he was in 1971, plus Ali would be at his absolute peak. In this scenario, Ali most likely beats Frazier, especially since at the end of the day FotC was very competetive until the last bell.

 

The other aspect is that Frazier supported Ali in exile and then Ali's pre-fight rhetoric and playing Black identity politricks infuriated Joe. Without this, how 'driven' might an earlier version of Joe be compared to his FOTC self?

Joe was hellbent on beating Ali and this combined with Ali's exile made for a unique fight dynamic. Interestingly, I've always heard it said that Yank didn't think that Joe was ready for Ali in 68 or 69.

I've always been a believer that the Ali that was continuously defending his title, that was still training with the hunger and dedication of his pre-exile self doesn't lose to Joe Frazier in '68, 69 or 70.

 

You could say Ali only beat Frazier when Frazier was past his best

 

Yes, I think it's more reasonable to look at the fights where they were about equal distance from their primes, and that's 2 and 3.

And that Ali should have been DQd without even having a point docked is of course absolute nonsense. No ref in his right mind would do that. The ref should have been harder on his clinching tactics, yes, but you can't blame Ali for doing what the ref let him get away with.

And let's not pretend Frazier was a saint. A key tactic for him was to hit Ali's hips when he couldn't find anything else, and that's technically below the belt but something the refs let slide. And of course Frazier also did what he was permitted to do.

 

Tyson lacking discipline.

I'm a firm believer in prime Tyson.

 

This was a tough call--but ultimately I went with the Ali selection just because I would have been curious to see how much BETTER he may have become after the 1967 Zora Folley fight--(when IMHO he was approaching a level no HW has reached before or since!!)