Should The Records Of Past Heavies Be Scrutinized & Reassessed Using The Modern Cruiser Standard?

Yes .... but heavyweights don't have weight limit, so even if a guy weighed 187 pounds or 199 pounds in a heavyweight contest there's a difference because there's no weight limit. He might be over-weight or he might be under-weight but that's his business, it's a heavyweight contest. In fact no one really cares whether the scales are right or wrong. You could have a 160 pound guy with weights in his pockets and boots coming in at 186, and a fat 300 pound guy cheating to look lightere and come in at 240, and so what? It's a no weight limit fight. Let them fight. Any weight they like. And fight anyone. It's open.

But ultimately, yes. Over 175 is heavyweight historically, so any fighter above 175 might be called a heavyweight if we want. In fact "CRUISEWEIGHT" was the name used In the British Empire for the 175 pound divsion for many decades, synonymous with "LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT" which was more commonly used by the Americans
So "cruiserweight" refers to about 4 different divisions - 175, 190, 195, 200.

As for Usyk, sure, but we still have to judge him on how many quality heavyweight contenders he beat. It's fine to say the 'cruisers' are 'heavyweights' too, but how many have proven before or since to be quality contenders in the open division? It's difficult to say where to rate some of them.

Now, for an interesting tangent. Should we rate Wilder as an all-time cruiserweight based on the idea that he "could have" made 200 pounds in his prime?

 

It is not about what others think. You can think Otto Wallin is useless, but that just means Usyk's resume looks worse off in the argument you are trying to make.

Fighter development isn't static. Hunter (age 28) was likely just entering his physical prime when he fought Usyk, but he still only had 12 pro fights. He then had six fights at heavyweight when he drew against Povetkin. Pro experience from 12 fights to 18 is significant to add to his physical prime. i.e. It is highly unlikely he was top 10 material back in 2017. - Bakole was very much unproven when he lost to Hunter as well - The only way to suggest that Hunter was top 10 already when Usyk beat him, would be to argue that fighters don't get better through experience.
To that point, we have the recent example of Dubois. He learnt from his first loss to Usyk and really developed over his next 3 fights. Not enough for Usyk, but still.

But the other problem is with Gassiev. Gassiev was a cruiserweight finalist. This suggests he was one of the best cruiserweights that Usyk faced. Yet at the same time 29/30 year old Gassiev (with pro heavyweight experience) couldn't hang with a guy you consider "useless". This means if one of the top cruiserweights on Usyk's resume is worse than a useless heavyweight, then Usyk's career at cruiserweight is pretty meaningless in terms of heavyweight legacy. Though it is possible, he just got a lot worse when he stepped up to heavyweight.

Then you have guys like Bellew, who was happy dining out on the carcass of David Haye, but wanted nothing to do with actual top 10 heavyweights.

Basically, Usyk's resume at cruiserweight, is a great cruiserweight resume (he became undisputed after all), but at heavyweight it doesn't add much. Of course, Usyk has some great highlights with wins over Fury, Joshua, and Dubois... but that's about it.

 

Several of his cruiserweight opponents likely would have been top 10 heavyweights at the time he faced them.

Id say far more would have been successful in prior eras when heavyweights were smaller like the 1960s

Moreover many prior heavyweights would be fighting at different divisions were they around today.

 

It's a stretch.
Glowacki was a top 5 CW and his best win was Cunningham or Huck. I guess it is possible he could have beaten the shell of David Haye or Stiverne. But then again guys like Kabayel were already EU holders on the periphery by then.
Hunter wasn't even a top 10 CW when Usyk beat him and it took him nearly 2 years of development to become a top 10 HW.
Huck was barely a top 10 CW when Usyk beat him, so forget about him as well.
By the time Usyk fights Briedis at the start of 2018 HW top 10 is:
Fury
Joshua
Wilder
Parker
Povetkin
Ortiz
Pulev
Ruiz Jr
Whyte
Miller (on drugs)

I'm just not seeing it

And we saw what happened to Gassiev at HW

 

Fury wasn't active so he's out but id obviously favor Breidis over shot Povetkin, Ruiz, and Whyte.

No reason to believe Hunter wasn't in fact a top 10 cruiserweight at the time he faced Usyk. And I doubt he suddenly improved upon moving to heavyweight.

Breidis and Hunter seem like obvious picks with Gassiev a possibility depending on if you think he declined subsequently

 

Hunter wasn't ranked by either TBRB or Ring in their CW top 10. So that would suggest to me that he wasn't a top 10 CW.

And there was nothing stopping say TBRB ranking him after losing wide to Usyk but I guess they didn't think losing wide warranted a ranking.

If you think Briedis could be top 10, fine I guess. I didn't consider Fury wasn't active again until May, and Briedis could maybe beat Breazeale. Tbh, can't really be arsed arguing over the eye test of a guy who never tested himself in the money division that is HW, yet spent recent years begging to fight Jake Paul

 

What makes you think the top guys would have fought him to begin with though? Ducking is rampant at heavyweight and I doubt any fighters would have faced him if their management didn't think they could win.

Usyk only got the fight with Joshua because his status as undisputed champ made him a mandatory with the sanctioning bodies

 

This argument makes no sense. Hunter can both gain experience at HW in 2018 and become a top 10 HW, and also be a guy who in 2017 could have been a top 10 HW had he moved up earlier. This is a guy who has been fighting at an elite amateur level since 2006.

Similarly, Gassiev can both be a CW WBSS finalist and also not be the second best guy in the tournament (nearly everyone would say it was Usyk and Breidis). Gassiev fighting one fight per year at a far lower level than his CW run, having injuries, and looking generally bad in the ring doesn't somehow make Otto Wallin beating him by SD a great win. Gassiev didn't do anything at HW.

These points seem either trollish or dumb, either way, it's not interesting.

 

That's not strictly true. Certainly WBO rules allowed Usyk to force through his title shot and try to block undisputed, but a number of top fighters and contenders wanted to fight Usyk before he became champion.

Takam was scheduled to be his first fight. Usyk got injured, Takam still wanted the fight. Usyk switched to Sponge, then Spong popped. Takam still wanted the fight, Usyk switched to the guy whose name I can't remember.
Whyte also wanted to fight Usyk. He petitioned the WBO because he had been WBO#1, so wanted a final eliminator with Usyk. Team Usyk seemingly won behind the scenes on that one, and Usyk got to be mandatory based on WBO rules.
Joyce also wanted to fight Usyk in a WBO interim title fight. Team Usyk refused.

Now we can agree or disagree with the why, but that is three guys plus Chisora which would suggest the top heavies and fringe contenders were quite willing to fight CW champion Usyk, so I'm sure they wouldn't be too worried about fighting Briedis. Certainly wouldn't duck him.
Has anyone ducked Gassiev or Hunter? - genuine question, I don't know.
Edit: (I know Hunter refused the Hrgovic fight, but I find it forgiveable given his promoter situation at the time)

 

As I mentioned to cojimar above, Hunter wasn't really considered a top 10 CW so its a leap to suggest he was likely a top 10 or even top 20 HW based on the loss to Usyk. He was competitive until he really wasn't.

I can agree on Briedis, that is why I said that Gassiev was "one of the best" at CW, which he was. You are probably too focussed on Wallin here, but I'm glad we agree Gassiev can't really be considered a good name on Usyk's HW resume.

As above, Briedis is likely the best candidate for a name on Usyk's HW resume, but even then he spent his career at cruiser weight so it's just based on the eye test and him likely picking off one of the weaker options that visit the top 10 - say, like a Breazeale

 

Hunter moved up and became a top 10 HW very soon after the Usyk loss. This, along with many other points that have been made in this thread, prove that Usyk is beating guys in the top 10 HW range while not technically fighting in the category. He deserves credit historically for doing so when other historical HW's get credit for beating even smaller opposition.

By all means, keep spamming the troll argument that sharing a ring with Iago Kiladze taught Hunter everything he knows about heavyweight boxing.

 

Lol since when has 6 fights and 2.5 years been considered an insignificant stretch of time and experience in boxing?

Who's trolling who here?

 

He stopped 255 pound Bakole a year after he lost to Usyk. What kind of timeline are you hoping to see out of a CW who moves up?

You have no coherent point and no one agrees with you. Feel free to quote me forever and follow me around different threads. You'll still be wrong.

 

You are in your feelings again - no one is following you around. Anyway, let's look at your "coherent" argument:

Hunter beat Bakole. Yes you are correct, he did beat him, but again...so what?
A Bakole who wasn't even a fringe contender at the time. It took years for Bakole to improve and climb up the ranks.

There are the two big problems with your argument:

(1) 2.5 years and 6 fights after Usyk, Hunter managed to scrape into the top 10 with a draw against "shot" Povetkin (while backed by Hearn and the referee ignoring a KD). Result being that he got dropped by his promoter due to messing up a fight set up to make him look good, and then put in a remarkable string of quite terrible performances. He has basically done nothing of real note before or since.

(2) In March 2017, just before Usyk beat Hunter, Ring and TBRB didn't even rank him in their top 10 CW. He was only ranked as the #9 cruiserweight by the WBO and he held one of their belts...

None of this suggests anything close to a top 10 heavyweight.

Though I must say, it's kind of impressive just how far off the reservation you are willing to go on this one.
Well done!