Since Usyk has no plans to fight Kabayel, should he vacate the WBC title?

If it wasn't for him choosing to step down multiple levels after his best wins, it might be arguable...
Beating Chisora put him firmly in the international levels where he should've stayed - fighting at least international journeymen, if not better. What does he do instead? He goes back to Germany and fights one domestic level bum a year for the next six years.

That shows a profound lack of ambition.

He was mooted as an opponent for both Fury and Joshua - neither fight happened... So either both ducked him (despite having been willing to fight much more proven fighters), or he ducked them, or he was demanding unrealistic money/contracts.

You're right, though, he wasn't seen as a serious opponent for the top guys before his return to fighting international opponents when he really started getting some hype behind him.

But why was it seen as "against the odds"? I would say simply because of hype... Because Makh was ridiculously overhyped and Sanchez was overrated as hell - and Kabayel had been forgotten whilst he relaxed on the domestic bum circuit.

The idea that Makh and Sanchez were ever top ten fighters, let alone top 3, is just silly... But rankings have this habit of placing guys where they absolutely don't belong sometimes.

Heck, just call it A1 excellent management (for a change, in his career!!) to have picked the most overrated opponents possible and get their hype for himself...

Zhang is a solid win - nobody beats him without having something about them (a chin, at minimum), but he's still a 50/50 fighter at contender level and loses as much as he wins... It establishes Kabayel is "up there", but it isn't exactly toppling the unbeatable, even if being the first to stop him is impressive.

It looks like a gauntlet when you phrase it as you did (using official rankings and so on), where it doesn't look like nearly the same degree of accomplishment when you look at it as I describe it, does it?

If Fury can't beat a mediocre journeyman with ease at this point, he should stay retired next time.

Either way, he has no business going into a trilogy where he's lost clearly twice.

 

The bigger problem is it seems to be a habit - he achieves a career high win, then goes searching for someone crap he can fight in Germany...

Hence beats Chisora in '17 (best win by miles at that point) and then fights Rovcanin in Germany - it takes 8 years before he improves on his best win by beating Zhang in '25, then he goes and targets domestic bumfighter Hysa for a fight in Germany, and when that falls through what does he pick? Another domestic level irrelevance in Knyba.

Not nice, but there's a kind of poetic justice in him getting his belt the soft way, given how his career has been overall.

Zhang is a solid win, worthy of a proper contender (regardless of Zhang's 50/50 record against proper fighters, nobody beats him without having something about them) and stopping him is impressive regardless of his age.

The 6 years of fighting domestic level opponents between Chisora (a good win) and Makhmudov (a massively overhyped journeyman) was a hell of a long time without fighting another international level opponent... That's something that fully deserves ridicule - it's not how a serious fighter constructs a career, it's not the mark of a man who wants to prove what he can do.

Makh was a decent win coming from the dross he'd been fighting. Sanchez is an okay gatekeeper win.

"Flaws" is putting it rather mildly... And that 27 is mostly bums - when only 3 or 4 have been respectable matches for a contender, something's not quite right there.

His style is interesting and he's got the hype now - hopefully he'll do something better with it than fighting another Knyba next... With his history, I wouldn't bet on it.

 

What you wrote is very clever, I really like it: 'I'm a fan but not a stupid fanboy who puts a boxer above fair criticism.' In my opinion if everyone were like that there would be more constructive and less polemical discussions. (Not long ago I had to block an idiotic fanboy who heavily insulted at other boxers who hadn't fought his idol. Unfortunately there are stupid people in this world.)

I'm also a fan of Usyk and I share your thoughts. The WBC recently announced that after his voluntary defense (Verhoeven) Usyk will have to fight Kabayel (interim WBC champion). Usyk can obviously fight whoever he wants, but if the WBC is serious about what it does, if the Ukrainian champion doesn't decide to fight Kabayel after Verhoeven, they will have to either strip him of his WBC world title and elevate Kabayel to WBC world title, or put the vacant WBC world title on the line in a fight between Kabayel and another boxer who deserves the co-challenge title.

 

If he doesn't fight him next, yes.

 

@BubblesUK :

You have valid points and indeed we will have to see if kabayel takes fighting "bums" between significant wins as a general habit or only due to the situation with usyk .

To be fair : he would be immediately ready to punch usyk the ukrainian colours into his ribs and liver and risk his world title ambitions because of course he could also loose against usyk . To be clear : Its usyk who ducks , not agit .

On the other hand he obviously choosed a "non risk" fight with knyba because he is not willing to risk his career and interim world title for "nothing" .

Currently i do not see him fighting dangerous opponents , lets say itauma or hrgovic .

And he does not call out wardley for the wbo belt , here he seems to be a bit "gun shy" , maybe both are cautious to face each other .

 

Now i didn't follow him in great detail, but he was on the radar after the Chisora win. I dont recall him ducking anyone. He nearly fought Joyce (4-0) but Kabayel did pull out sick. And I dont see it as Joshua or Fury ducking him either. Him not being a name seemed the most likely issue. But who knows, really. We probably cant say much either way

While I agree on the Mahkmudov overhype, he was definitely seen as the favourite to win. Very much so on this board as well. If you picked Kabayel - good job (so did I, and we were in a very small minority)

Sanchez was indeed considered a top 10 fighter, btw. As you may know I like to keep track of such things. If both Ring and TBRB rank him that's a good enough objective measure.
Though I understand you may not agree on that given Sanchez's main victory was over Ajagba then he was treading water with opponent selection.

And on Zhang we seem to agree. Though I would say having watched most of Zhang's fights, no one has dealt with him quite like that. It was the manner of it that should also elevate him

In comparison to his peers, though? It kind of is

Whyte was ducked until he fell off. That shouldn't be the way of things. It is annoying to see history repeat itself, now with Kabayel, while Warren keeps repositioning his guys for endless title shots

And...yes, we also agree on Fury. But we know the media are going hype the Mahkmudov win

Have a good one

 

Well i guess an issue he has is that he can't unify the WBC interim with the WBO belt.

So that puts him in a catch 22.

Fight for the WBO and win, there is nothing to stop Usyk ignoring the WBO champion.
Stay the course with the WBC, and Usyk can potentially ignore him by fighting for the WBO (UnDiSpUtEd 3)

It kind of comes down to Sulaiman...

 

Pathetic line up. Let's hope he gets knocked out.

 

Probably more a grammar fail than anything, but while Usyk has a history of ducking no man and Kabayel has a history of hiding away? Usyk has taken the toughest bouts over and over again regardless of stacked decks, Kabayel doesn't - this specific context aside for a moment, this line appears almost perfectly backwards.

And with the undeniable bit out of the way, let's get to where we might disagree more...

A duck is the avoidance of a worthy opponent who has a reasonable chance of beating you, without good reason to do so - cowardice is heavily implied, but it's not automatically the smoking quack...

And that's why there's so much disagreement on who's ducking who - worthiness is somewhat subjective opinion, who's likely to beat who is somewhat subjective opinion and what's a good reason to fight someone else instead (or retire) is somewhat subjective opinion.

Very rarely is it an open and shut undeniable duck - where the fighter being ducked is obviously more worthy, obviously far more likely to win and the only same explanation is cowardice... And yet even in those cases, you'll find posters looking for ways to explain away and excuse that duck.
Take Wilder ducking Joshua - AJ had more belts (definitely worthy) had beaten far better opponents than Wilder had and would've been a career high payday by far and a shot at undisputed for Wilder - only a Wilder duck makes any sense at all, and yet... Still posters on here deny it.

So let's apply the same test to Usyk-Kabayel - and that's where (I think) we'll start to disagree...
Is Kabayel worthy? Broadly, but not unequivocally, yes - he's beaten a dangerous fringe contender and is consensus top 3 at the moment.
Does Kabayel have a reasonable chance of beating Usyk? Usyk's got comfortably the better resume, having beaten 3 guys better than Zhang twice each - so it depends how much better Kabayel is than he's proved yet, and whether age is harming Usyk's performance levels... Right now I think this is a 70/30 for Usyk, if not wider, but others may well disagree.
Does Usyk have good reason to fight other fights instead? Potentially yes - Parker would bring a lot more legacy value right now, Wardley has a more consistent upwards trajectory - Rico absolutely isn't a better fight... Then you have money - the Turki in the room - and you have a good (if selfish) reason to want to fight someone else.
Is cowardice involved? Given Usyk has fought and beaten more obviously scary dudes (both as a cruiser and a heavy), I'm absolutely not buying that one - no.

So while I'd like to see them fight, I'd rule it a no-duck, but you're welcome to your own opinion.

 

On the flipside...

Win the WBO and he's already a champion.

If Usyk then decides to fight a last real challenge for another unification/undisputed, Kabayel's set it up... He's taken the obvious rival for that fight off the table and made himself the only game in town.

But the big "if" is obviously that... He has to win. If he loses, he's in the waiting room with Parker and the rest and has to try and fight his way back up.

And for a man who's not always appeared to love a challenge, that might be a tough sell.

 

Thing is, you can take relatively soft touches without taking the ****.

Knyba wasn't even international level - a mediocre international performer would've been a much more respectable option, and it would've been more impressive to blow one of them out early-ish (even with a soft stoppage) than a domestic nobody.

It's not just the soft touch - it's how bloody soft that touch was.

Potentially dangerous...

Itauma is still a relatively unproven prospect, potentially risky because his ceiling is totally unknown, but equally has been matched mega conservatively and built up slowly for the next era with no intention of competing in Usyk's one - it wouldn't be available anyway.

Hrgovic is an overrated gatekeeper with mediocre power and a poor gas tank - he's not without his strengths, but those two glaring weaknesses lock him at gatekeeper max... If Kabayel is the contender we all have him down for, that's a straightforward win, albeit one that might give him things to think about and learn for a few rounds... If anything, it's the perfect example of a step down that's still a safe/banker fight.

It only really takes one... But it could easily be a two-way duck, too.

If either thought they were superior and wanted to guarantee they were first in line (and increase the pressure on Usyk to fight them) then they'd be screaming for it... But they're not. Says plenty, eh?

 

The trouble with this is Usyk has strategically dropped belts twice already... So i imagine it is a tough sell.

Right now, in theory, if Usyk doesn't fight him, he is elevated to champion just like Dubois and Wardley were. If he can't be sure that Usyk will ever fight him, the green belt might be more appealing that the...actually i'm not sure what colour the WBO is (reddish-brown?). In any event the WBC as a single title does hold more prestige over the WBO.

Maybe getting elevated to WBC champion would make him more marketable and therefore appealing to Usyk. Because if we are being honest, that seems to be Usyk's primary concern these days


Haha, I just realised that you have dragged me back in. I should cook dinner. Good conversation as ever.

 

You're miles worse of a coward than you accuse Usyk of being. Can't actually come back and debate, just quippy one-liners. Pathetic.

Also, where did you get this dumbass idea that Usyk demanded the belt be on the line? That's clearly not his doing. Why in the world would Usyk want to cost himself 3% of a giant purse while also risking losing his belt if a miracle happens and Verhoeven beats him?

 

You have absolutely no clue what Agit has or hasn't done in his career behind the scenes. It's completely possible that he was offered money to fight a slew of top HWs like AJ and he turned it down. You see, that's where people who are at least semi-intelligent stop and think and realize they don't know everything and that there might just be more than meets the eye when it comes to boxing matches being made.

And right now I want you to categorically state that Riddick Bowe is a horrid ducker and a bum because he threw his belt in the trash rather than face Lennox. Then I want you to categorically state that Lennox Lewis is a ducking bum who shouldn't be considered a Top 10 HW of all-time because he threw away the IBF belt to swerve Chris Byrd and go fight an old, busted, shot to pieces Mike Tyson for a boat load of money instead. Then I want you to categorically state for all of us here that Big George Foreman is also a ducking piece of garbage bum because he threw away the WBA belt rather than fight Tony Tucker. Not only that, he also threw away the IBF belt rather than give Alex Schulz a rematch. All three of those guys are just as bad or worse than Usyk according to the **** you've been spouting. So I wanna see you denounce all of them, too.

If you can't come out and say that then you obviously just have it out for Usyk and your principles are completely fraudulent.

 

This is certainly a fair point.

Regardless of whether you call it ducking (as some would, and do) or whether you call it Usyk caring more about being able to set his own reasons for who he fights and when...

It boils down the same way - if he doesn't want the fight, regardless of the reason why, he can and will do it his own way.

Right now, yes... And potentially claim more of the split if he then goes to unify with Wardley/Dubois than he'd get right now.

Historically... Yes, the WBC has been the more prestigious.
Arguably, especially at heavyweight, the orgs antics have diminished that - but it's probably still the more desirable nonetheless.

Being in a position to offer Usyk a proper legacy enhancing fight, with a higher profile than he has now, surely would be more marketable and more appealing?

Usyk has decent reasons/excuses to look elsewhere for the moment - nobody makes an undeniable claim that can't be ignored, especially with the guys at the top of the list having such thin resumes... If one beats the other, that could potentially swing it?

Haha, enjoy!