Does Anyone Believe Joe Frazier Could Beat Sonny Liston?

Irrelevant unless he's going to take a dive here.

This is more disingenuous garbage from you. You know exactly why Liston wasn’t getting big-name fights after Maine, and it had nothing to do with him not trying. Pretending otherwise isn’t ignorance—it’s deliberate dishonesty.

1. It was his EIGTH pro fight.

2. Marshall was not a journeyman. He had been ranked previously—I'm not sure if he was ranked at that exact moment— but he certainly was two fights later when he destroyed Satterfield. He had a massive edge in experience. That's certainly not a case where one's corner thinks their fighter is "supposed to walk over" their opponent. More of a case of a corner throwing their fighter to the wolves early.

How do you think a 37–40-year-old Joe Frazier would fare against Leotis Martin? Keep in mind, Frazier was already shot by age 34 and retired shortly after. The Frazier who got a “draw” against Cummings was still younger than Liston was when he faced Martin.

In your honest opinion—if you can give one—how do you think that younger Frazier would do against Martin? Remember, this time he’d actually be facing a top-ten contender, not a jumbo muscled freak who’d never come close to anything resembling a ranking.

This better fighter argument is non-sense. Aside from Ali, the best around was Patterson and he didn't do to badly against him to put it mildly. It's hardly Liston's fault there was nobody better around. What do you want him to do? Teleport fighters from different eras?

Regardless, aside from Ali, Patterson came close to matching Frazier's best victories, he drew with Quarry, was robbed in the rematch, and robbed against Ellis. All of which you agree with per your own posts.

"Didn't have a better chin"
Frazier, in just one fight—actually, one round—was dropped more times than Liston was in his entire career. He also got dropped by the little-known Mike Bruce. Sure, I get it—that was only his second fight. But if Liston’s seventh fight against Marty Marshall—a guy who actually made the rankings and beat contenders unlike Bruce—is fair game, then Frazier’s early struggles deserve the same consideration.

I'm not even going to dignify your laughable implication that Frazier was more powerful than Liston with a response.

Of course there is, and you know it. You’re just being disingenuous—just like earlier when you strongly implied Liston was ducking contenders after Ali, even though your own posts showed you knew that wasn’t true. Frankly, I expect nothing less from you.

And what happened? Did he magically turn things around or did he ended up getting stopped?

More non-sense from you. Like I said before, unless Liston is taking a dive here, this is entirely irrelevant. Otherwise, you could use this argument for plenty of Liston fights. "Patterson never took a dive, so he wipes the floor with Liston lolz"

This is getting comical at this point. Not only do you refuse to see any comparisons between Liston and Foreman, you also insist Liston wasn’t anything like him. And I don’t even think this is your usual disingenuousness at play—though, of course, we can never fully rule that out with you. You just genuinely dksab.

This exchange has confirmed to me that you’re the most dishonest and disingenuous poster on these boards—and that’s saying something given the competition. What’s even more pathetic is that the others at least manage to keep their stories straight, while you can’t even lie without tripping over your own obvious contradictions.

 

Out of all the laughable contradictions and narratives he spins and pretends to believe, this one might be my favorite.

Dubblechin: Liston has no chance against Frazier. He would get demolished. If he's lucky, he lasts the four rounds Chuvalo did.
Also Dubblechin: Cleveland Williams is 50-50 against Frazier. It would be a brutal back-and-forth war, and they'd need a trilogy to settle it.

Someone please make it make sense.

 

Spot on, Swag. Every word.

 

Swag, I posted 100 times on various topics last month alone. So, no, I don't remember that

If you're going to search 'years old' posts on completely separate topics where I said Cleveland Williams might upset Joe Frazier ... to try to smear me in this thread, knock yourself out.

What I don't see you doing is presenting an argument why Liston beats Frazier.

Because there really isn't one. Because Liston wasn't Foreman.

Frazier was better than Liston, beat better fighters, was a better champ, and didn't lose, no matter his age, to guys like Marty Marshall.

And if you just want to turn this into a personal insult thread, I have no interest.

I'm just here to talk boxing.

Sorry if the Marty Marshall video set you off.

But he was a pretty crappy fighter to lose to. No denying it.

 

I think calling George Liston mk2 seriously over rates George and under rates Sonny...

 

Okay, so Liston wasn't getting fights after Lewiston because he QUIT against one of the biggest underdogs in heavyweight history to that point after only six rounds (nine full rounds to go), and then he took a dive in the rematch.

And he was a disgrace to the sport. And nobody wanted anything to do with a quitter who took dives. So, he had to leave the country because he represented the worst of the sport.

Is that less disingenuous! Would you prefer that?

I don't think that makes him more likely to beat a prime Joe Frazier in a war of attrition.

And he fought Marshall three times, not once. Lost to him over the distance once and got his jaw broken. Stopped Marshall once. And went the distance with him a third time.

Side note, Joe Frazier didn't need three fights to settle matters with anyone except Muhammad Ali.

Again, fighting Marty Marshall three times doesn't help his case.

Finally, Joe Frazier only got stopped by George Foreman and Ali. And Joe refused to quit against both.

So, say what you will about his chin, he only got stopped or lost two of the greatest Heavyweights ever.

Liston can't remotely say the same

 

Here we go again.

Sonny Liston was 40 years old in 1969, but he was a mere child when he lost to Marty Marshall in 15 years earlier.

If he was 40 in 1969, then that makes him 25 years old when he lost to Marty Marshall and got his jaw broken. Which, again, doesn't help his case.

What was the undefeated Joe Frazier doing at 25? Making his fourth heavyweight title defense by stopping Jerry Quarry in the Fight of the Year? Apparently.

This nonsense trying to make Liston something he wasn't needs to stop.

What he wasn't was someone who would've beaten a prime Joe Frazier.

A quitter never beat Joe Frazier.
A dive taker never beat Joe Frazier.
And a guy who lost to freaking light heavy journeyman never beat Joe Frazier.

And Liston was all of those.

 

Liston was a poor southern black moved to northern city and became a criminal like Joe Frazier the difference is Liston spent years in jail. Got a late start and then lost time in jail. So that’s why his career was behind Fraziers. Liston had a very short amateur career unlike Frazier. He lost to Marshall in his 8th pro fight!! Reversed it twice soon after. He then went undefeated till he was an old man and beat up Leotis Martin a very underrated fighter until he ran out of gas.

 

Well you certainly didn't lose any form during your hibernation

 

Man up for once. You smeared yourself. Yet again you got caught out arguing polar opposite stances. No-one changes stances so radically. It completely strips credibility.

 

Frazier is a top 10 ATG with a motor. Of course he could beat Liston. But Liston is the favorite imo, not a good style matchup for Joe.

 

I think Liston's educated pressure is as smothering as Frazier's frenetic buzzsaw pressure. Sonny was efficiency personified. His feet were not fast because they didn't have to be, they only moved where they needed to go when they needed to. Joe was masterful at slipping the jab but I think Sonny's jab was more of an offensive range control than a defensive one and it was never wasted. There was nothing flash about Liston. He was remorseless, efficient and hugely underrated boxer who I feel gets unfairly ignored because of his reverses against Ali. The first fight was actually a good one until his injury and who knows what would have happened had Sonny stayed fit.

His opponents over the years comment that there was nowhere to go when you were in a ring with him. He was not 'like Foreman' who winged wide punches and in my opinion was nowhere near the complete fighter Sonny was. We talk about Joe taking Sonny's jab away, but maybe Sonny does not let him. That reach, those massive fists, his implaccable positioning, would he have allowed Frazier to 'get into a fight' with him?

They are two of my favourite fighters of all time, but I have always felt although Joe is one of the all time great heavies, he gets slightly overrated BECAUSE he beat Ali and BECAUSE of the Thrilla, and I feel Sonny gets underrated BECAUSE of Ali...

We don't judge fighters on their 2nd, 8th or even last fights, we judge them on a career and I'd say looking at both men's careers they are not only atgs, they are head to head atgs but I think Sonny lists higher as an H2H atg and I think his attributes see him bust up and stop Frazier sometime after 12...

 

Liston is a SMALL HEAVYWEIGHT, nowhere near as big as a 240 pound Ruddock. He is barely bigger than Frazier, this isn't glass chin light heavyweight Floyd Patterson. Sonny is more skilled than Frazier and hits much harder, but I see no reason for Liston to blow him out, it would be a competitive fight. Frazier was good at slipping jabs, could upset Listons textbook style with his head movement and would be the best opponent he would have ever faced bar Ali

 

However I look at it Liston is all wrong for Frazier.

Prime for prime I would favor Liston, but Frazier probably wins in the timeframe where the fight was possible.

 

Your line,," Liston is all wrong for Frazier", is the 1st thought I had when this fight is mentioned. Joe simply cannot stand in front of Sonny and survive .