Daniel Dubois is underrated

Would've been intriguing to include a poll on this one. I'm really not big on Dubois, never have been, not as a serious contender. He's a solid Euro-level top 15 guy, but I think he'd have lost to Parker if he didn't jump ship at the last minute, and I think Wardley is going to spark him, but I could also see Wardley hitting the floor.

Dubois has a great jab and serious power, but he only beat Hrgovic because he was allowed to headbutt his face to pieces with impunity. Really not sold on him, especially at the world level; he wasn't competitive for a second in either of the Usyk fights, and he also made Joe Joyce look like a prime Larry Holmes.

 

It didn't imply anything
It was a straight forward question that you ducked for a second time
Another question
How was that run of 5 fights not considered somewhat successful?
Yes he lost to Usyk twice, but sandwiched between that, won a world title and beat 3 highly rated HWs. Two of which were undefeated
Doesn't sound too bad

 

"He's a solid Euro-level top 15 guy"

Bizarre. Who are the 9-14 HW's better than Dubois? Going into the Usyk rematch, Dubois was on what was the best KO streak in the division: undefeated Miller, 70-30 favourite undefeated Hrgovic, 70-30 favourite Joshua. He's ranked No.4 on heavyweightrankings.com right now, has been as high as No.2, and is a former title holder. He's not a "Euro level" (European WBO titlist) maybe fringe top 15 Christian Hammer type.

You could argue that Wlad only beat Povetkin or Ali only beat Frazier in fight 2 because of clinching, but this A-side contingent strategy made them more formidable in practice, the same is true of Dubois' headbutts (and there are a degree of dirty tactics in virtually every fight, it doesn't entirely discredit a win/performance, or even significantly per se).

It's also impossible to say that Dubois wouldn't have won without the headbutts: Hrgovic never hurt him, and the fight had already turned into a war by round 3, and Hrgovic was almost totally out of gas by round 8, with Dubois getting stronger and stronger, having taken over by round 7. It's very plausible that Dubois was going to win anyway, and he's a significantly more dangerous puncher than the likes of Hrgovic and Parker.

If Joyce looked like "prime Larry Holmes" against Dubois then Holmes wasn't that great, because Dubois was ahead after 7 rounds against Joyce, even after 9 officially (if he stays on his feet he likely doesn't lose a decision), and lost due to a lack of heart (or Joyce's insane chin) more than anything else. And Joyce utterly battered Parker, who lost to Dubois-victim Joshua and probably would have lost to Hrgovic (or at best 50-50).

 

Dubois is like Joshua: vulnerable, but a big athletic puncher. More quit than Joshua, and less skill, but he's more aggressive and game before he's taken into deep waters, and both Miller and Hrgovic failed to take him there too.

 

It’s a habit and default setting now

 

In my opinion, he is Euro-level, ability-wise. I don't mean he's the 15th-best HW; he's just not in that top-5 elite bracket for me. Miller is not a measuring stick for anything; he's a drug cheat and has zero wins that plot him anywhere close to world level. The ghost of Joshua is Dubois' best win, and while it was a destructive win, the fact that Joshua is finished needs to be put into context there, too.

Warren has done an immense job promoting Dubois and convincing people he is elite. He lost every single minute of both Usyk fights, was on the floor multiple times against Lerena, and quit against Joyce. The Holmes comparison was because Joyce couldn't miss with his jab. Dubois had his moments, but Joyce was in control of that fight and forced the stoppage without having to get out of second gear.

I disagree with him not being hurt vs. Hrgovic; he hurt him twice, from what I recall. I remember he hurt him in the 5th round with a peach of a right hand. Yes, the fight was a war by round 3, but Hrgovic's eye was opening up in round 4 because of the catalogue of headbutts he was subject to. Hrgovic fought a stupid fight, but the amount of headbutts Dubois landed was obscene. I'm happy to hold my hands up if I get this wrong, but I think Wardley is going to flatten Dubois.

 

"Miller is not a measuring stick for anything; he's a drug cheat and has zero wins that plot him anywhere close to world level."

Regardless of the bad decision, Miller had what most observers saw as a clear win over Ruiz: better than Parker, far better than Joshua 1. No one else has beaten him yet, let alone dominated and stopped him as Dubois did. Also, many of this forum's favourite heroes are "drug cheats", and this potentially makes Miller more formidable, not less. Miller was a top 10 HW contender several years back, which is in part why he got the Joshua fight.

"The ghost of Joshua is Dubois' best win"

This is classic revisionism. Going into that fight, 34 year old Joshua was a near-universal top 3 HW coming off destructive wins and a big favourite. Dubois is a dangerous puncher and ran him over, as he could well have done at any point in Joshua's career.

"Joyce was in control of that fight and forced the stoppage without having to get out of second gear."

Joyce was down on the scorecards after 9 rounds and won based on 1. a great chin 2. Dubois quitting. He was very circumspect against Dubois, moving around a lot: compare that to his approach against Parker. It was a highly competitive and tense fight, with a green Dubois fighting a much more experienced high level operator.

"Yes, the fight was a war by round 3," "Hrgovic fought a stupid fight"

Ok, so you concede it was a war even before Hrgovic's eye started opening up. Whether Hrgovic fought a stupid fight or not is conjecture: he tried to blow Dubois out early and Dubois didn't budge, showing good resiliance and ultimately good stamina too. It's easy to say "he fought the wrong fight" after he lost, but going in Hrgovic thought he had the optimal tactics for Dubois, and given he'd sparred him before (and allegedly beat him up many years ago), he'd have a better idea than we do.

Even if not a "perfect win" by one's own criteria, it was a good win and a good performance by Dubois against the serially avoided top 10 ranked undefeated fighter who took Zhang's 0.

"but I think Wardley is going to flatten Dubois."

He may well, it's a 50-50 fight. Wardley's a good fighter: big puncher, lots of heart, tough, beat Parker. Wardly is himself ranked in the top 5, currently No.2. Losing to him wouldn't make Dubois a top 15'er.

 

I addressed your question by addressing the opponents. Just because it isn't the answer that you wanted doesn't mean I ducked it, but I'll spell it out for you again as you appear to have difficulty with basic comprehension skills. Your question was:

"Tell me how me how many other top 10 HWs outside of Usyk, who have had as tough a run and in the same under 3 year period"

I'd consider most of the top ten to have had a tougher run because they haven't been handed so many undeserved title shots, nor have they quit when things get tough. Here's Dubios "successful" turned into "somewhat successful" run (because you seem to enjoy shifting the goal posts rather than have an honest debate):

1. Usyk, who despite being low blowed, made Dubios quit with a jab.
2. Miller, who has not had a single win against anyone in the top 10, is a drug cheat and proceeded to get a draw against a shot Andy Ruiz after a losing effort against Dubios. He is not a good opponent.
3. Hrgovic, who has a few nice wins, but Dubios win against him is tainted because he had to foul his way to a cut stoppage.
4. AJ, who is shot and well past it, is the best win on Dubios record. I will give Dubios credit here, as it was an impressive win.
5. He was supposed to fight Parker, but ducked him because he wasn't confident he would win and pulled a sicky.
6. Usyk, who Dubios promptly quit against in round 5.

That is not a "tough" run, let alone a "somewhat" successful one. He's had 3 title shots in that time and quit in two of them the moment things looked remotely difficult for him. He had one good win in the form of AJ out of the six fights he was supposed to have in 3 years. Even Chisora and Witherspoon have better performances against Usyk than Dubios has had.

 

You may have addressed but you didn't answer
We know who his opponents were. Now try and answer the question you keep ducking.
You are making it worse for yourself by keeping posting to me without answering

I couldn't care less what your answer is, I was just posing a question which you keep ducking

lol

looks like there might be an answer coming... A list of HW opponents outside of Usyk.
Let's see...

So absolutely no answer then. Just another duck
So you say most of the top 10? So you are suggesting if I picked a random top 10, I can compare. Fair enough
Torrez, Gassiev, Okolie last 5 fights?
There is 3 there, but I don't know how you are going to answer unless it's another duck.
Please explain why you think they were tougher?
Was it because they didn't have a title shot?
Please remember Dubois wasn't just handed a title shot, he beat Miller and Hrgovic
So wasn't handed

It's fair enough if you are not thinking it is anything special but the point is, you still haven't answered the question and listed all the other HWs from the original question

You even copied and pasted the question and still haven't been able to directly answer


You are trying to compare performances as some justification, without answering
Some argue Chisora had a better performance against Usyk than Fury. Doesn't mean he would be rated above on that fight alone

 

I answered your question in part by disputing it. Your question is made on the basis Dubios has had a "tough" run, and your defense of him implies that it was successful. In my opinion, he hasn't. I'm not obligated to accept the premise of your question and answer it as though you are correct by default, but I gave you a bone and answered your question along with my reasoning for the answer, which was: "I'd consider most of the top ten to have had a tougher run because they haven't been handed so many undeserved title shots, nor have they quit when things get tough."

You don't have to agree with the answer, but don't claim that I haven't addressed and answered it when I clearly have.

"Most of the top ten" doesn't mean you can pick by random, because there's a chance you'd pick an exception, so that's flawed logic. The keyword is "most" which would be 5 of the top ten excluding Dubios, not "'random' cherrypick bailey picks to bolster his 'argument' in a feeble attempt at a 'gotcha'" Which top ten you'd like to use is also up for debate, because I wouldn't consider Torrez, Okolie or Ajagba as being more deserving of being in the top ten than say, Chisora or Zhang, but that's just my opinion.

Here's a question for you: Which heavyweight in the past 4 years has had as many title shots as Dubios, and how have they earned it less than him?

 

I never once said he was a bum, nor do I consider him such; I just don't think he's at that elite world-level. European level is the step below elite level for me. There's still a bracket of very good fighters in there. Any fighter who steps up to fight the King of the division and gets absolutely schooled twice, especially in a rematch where the beating was somehow worse than in the first fight, that's not a sign of someone who is one of the best in the division.

Fury picked up rounds, Chisora picked up rounds, and even Joshua did. Dubois lost every single minute of both fights; he looked completely lost in there. In the second fight, he walked chin-first into a haymaker. He is defensively inept, and headbutting Hrgovic to death or beating a 40 stone walrus like Miller doesn't put him in the bracket with the likes of Fury and Usyk for me. That's why he is overrated. Warren has done a phenomenal job promoting him and convincing people otherwise.

 

Im not sure it’s just a habit it’s not something that can be taught/learnt either, theres more to it than that imo

His flaws aren’t boxing flaws, he’s got the tools and I’d say his skills are definitely underrated, one of the best jabs out there and plenty of power too but when it’s not going to plan there are no answers

Dubois/wardley so intriguing for me because of how opposite they are, wardley without the background/skillset but mindset of a warrior, Dubois? The exact opposite