Divac. Let me tell you something. I watch fights like the casual fans in the arena most of the time. I do not sit with a pen and a bit paper and focus intently on the action for the full 12 rounds. Sometimes I may turn my head and speak to someone or run out the room for 30 secs to do a ****. It's simply more relaxing and enjoyable. Some people on here have probably got a scoring record notebook of about 500 fights. Not me. If I feel like scoring a fight, I will. You know what I should have said on the Chavez-Kamau scoring "I never scored the fight" that would have been better. I had the nerve and courage to give my take on the fight without it being precise and accurate. Big mistake and stupid when I come to think of it. Regarding me being a huge Whitaker fan. Surely that in itself doesn't make me biased. Well I'll tell you, I have a solid track record on here for not being biased.
I said earlier that I understood why someone such as yourself would not score a fight as it was happening on live time....... .....but you also said you saw the Whitaker-Rivera fight for the first time just a couple of years ago......you did'nt score it proper then either......and really, thats fine if you just enjoy watching the fight without the hassle of going through scoring it....because when you score it, you do have to pay extra attention and focus more on it, than someone who is just out to enjoy the fight. ......However Robbi, can you imagine (and it just might have happened with alot of people viewing the JMM-Pac fight) just looking at a competitive fight like JMM-Pac, where there was a knockdown scored. ......the knockdown sticks out like a sore thumb to anyone that did'nt score the fight in its proper round by round basis. To the man that did'nt score it, I would find it quite easy to have him say, "it was a give and take battle, the knockdown imo sealed it for Pac! .....thats very easy to say for someone that did'nt score it proper, but for someone who did, that statement is a bitter pill to swallow, knowing that JMM doubled Pac in rounds won in the contest. ......just the other day I was talking with a friend about the Peter-McCline fight.....he was telling me that Peter got his ass kicked, and that they gave him the fight......obviously for my friend, he just saw the fight, but never scored it.......for someone who scored it, Peter won hands down. Thats the difference between someone who views the fight, and someone who scores it. For someone who did'nt score it, Jameel McCline was robbed blind vs Samuel Peter, when in fact, that just was'nt the case. Anyway Robbi, I know and understand that it might not be feasable for you to score a fight proper when its happening live, but the reasons I outlined are the very reasons why I do. If I want to come in here and beef about the imcompetence of judges in a particular fight, I want to have scored the fight proper before I set out to do so.
Divac. How did you score Chavez-Randall I?. And thats scoring it like a judge with Chavez being penalised for the two single point deductions and the knockdown as well. Thats 4 points Chavez being down already with the 10-8 round and also two other points in seperate rounds. Lets not forget Randall probably won more rounds as well IMO. Lets have it Divac. I'm going to score it soon.
Both those Randall fights were tough to score, because both were giving and taking. I had Chavez down by a sizable margin after 4 or 5 rounds. Chavez had no idea the caliber fighter Randall was...... ......however, when Chavez realized his undefeated streak was at stake as he was losing the early rounds, he stepped on the pedal and imo won most of the mid rounds. .....at the end of the night, from memory because I dont keep my scorecards, I believe I had Randall up a point or two, and that includes with the deductions for low blows, the 2nd of which I thought was bogus( Randall got hit on the beltline). Steele did a terrible job of refereeing that fight Robbi, he had gotten alot of flak through the years for stopping Chavez' fight with Meldrick Taylor, and had been booed heavily by the fans everytime his name was even mentioned. ......in any regards, imo the point deductions by Steele in that Randall fight were in his mind makeup calls for his decision in the Taylor fight. Steele let outside forces, interfere with his job that night in Chavez vs Randall. Here is a mans undefeated streak on the line, in a fight Chavez could very well have been trailing, and he deducts a second point from Chavez for a blow that landed at the beltline.:-( ......Chavez had worked his ass off after doing poorly early in the fight, to get back in it in the mid to late rounds......and Steele decides that he's going to factor into it, instead of letting the fighters decide it!:-( Since you're going to watch it Robbi, I've always felt that Chavez lost his head after that 2nd point deduction.....and knowing that there was only one other round left after the point deduction round in that 11th, and realizing that his undefeated streak was in jeopardy, he opened himself up more than he normally would have and ran into that picture perfect beauty of a right hand by Frankie Randall. Most fighters would have been knocked unconscious by that right hand.......how Chavez got up from it, is a testament to his will and great chin.:yep After watching it Robbi, tell me if you think like I, that the point deduction by Steele in that 11th round is what led to Chavez running into that right hand by Randall? I thought the point deduction was the decider! One final note, at the time, being a Chavez fan, I was mad as heck at Referee Richard Steele, I thought Chavez was within his rights to call Steele a "**** you!" at the ring interview after the fight. ......but looking back at it now, I do feel for Steele.....he was a hated referee back then, and the pressure of the Taylor controversy just got to him. I know it was'nt anything malicious by Steele, and he really did'nt deserve the fans booing him everywhere he worked, but he just was'nt the same referee after the Chavez-Taylor fight.
You know, I used to think the Chavez-Taylor stoppage was acceptable and I still don't think Steele could have possibly been expected to be aware of the time. HOWEVER, I thought it was odd that Steele asked "You ok? You ok?" within the space of less than two seconds before stopping the fight. There was no way Taylor could have responded without interrupting Taylor. Also, he could have tested Taylor by asking him to walk forward. The only reason for him doing so is either incompetance or malice, since he MIGHT have seen the ring lights and known there was only a short amount of time in which to keep his meal ticket with Don King. However, I suspect the former rather than the latter. Steele was never revealed to be corrupt in other fights but he was shown to be a hopelessly incompetant referee with terrible judgement and frayed nerves. He probably lost his composure, which is why he didn't give Taylor a chance to respond or any other test.
Yeah, maybe Steele should have counted in slow motion, and asked Taylor in Super Slow motion arrrrrreeeeee yoooouuuuuuuuu ooooooooooookkkkkkkkkkkkkkayyyyyyyyy????????:nut Christ, Taylor went through a full count, of which Taylor should have let it be known to Steele, without Steele as much as asking a question, that he was ok. .....by the time Steele was about to ask for the second time to Taylor if he was OK, Steele through his observations already knew to stop the fight. The people that dont agree with the stoppage have blinders on....only looking at everything through a Meldrick Taylor vantage point...."Steele did'nt do this, he did'nt do that,......He should have allowed Taylor more time to respond..... .....Jesus, Taylor had more than a full count to respond and did'nt........ ......what about looking it through the Chavez vantage point? It would have been an injustice to Chavez if Steele went out of his way and tried to forcefully extract a verbal or signal response by Meldrick Taylor. .....can you imagine Steele then telling Taylor, "if you dont respond now, I'm going to stop the fight!" :nut Btw Kurgan, of the many years I've been a boxing fan, a referee only instructs a fighter to walk foward, if that fighter has somehow signaled to him that he wants to continue........once the fighter communicates that to the ref, and the ref is not convinced he's ready to continue, the ref may then ask the fighter to walk foward, as a status to prove he's able to stand and walk on his own two feet. Taylor never communicated to the ref either verbally or by signaling, that he was ready to continue.....thus there was no reason for Steele to have asked Taylor to walk foward.
No, but he could have given Taylor time to respond. Why do you think Steele rushed through the process so quickly when Taylor was clearly ahead on points and had won nearly every round? As for blinders... I'm not a Meldrick Taylor fan, but you are a Chavez fan, are you not?
Clearly in your post Kurgan, you are asking for Steele to have tried other avenues to get a response from Taylor. ......your two cents were for Steele to have asked Taylor to walk foward.....I clearly shot down that view. If you really think about it, you're asking Steele to go out of his way to extract a response from a fighter that was clearly hurt and not fit to continue. Think about it, you're asking Steele to be of the mindset that he will do everything in his power to stall a count, ask multiple questions until he gets a response, and just wait for Taylor to be fit to continue. I think what led Steele to stop the fight was Taylor's blank stare as he was giving him the count.....and then at one point Taylor even turned his head and away from Steele as he was counting.....all factors that contributed to Steele stopping the fight. Its just mind boggling to me that this stoppage is even controversial.:-( When you look at it now with all the facts, in hindsight, medical evidence exist of Richard Steele's words that very same night at ringside.......Steele when asked by Merchant why he had stopped the fight with so few seconds left, Steele responded, "I dont care how many seconds were left, Meldrick had taken enough punishment, bom bom bom, I had seen enough!" .......then years later on HBO's legendary night, Steele was quoted as saying that although Taylor may have been outlanding Chavez 2 or 3 to one, Chavez was landing shots to break bones! Medical evidence is present today that backs Steele's assertions. Taylor had a broken eyesocket, which was only one of the numerous injuries that Taylor suffered that night. In fact the fractured eyesocket was the least of Taylor's medical dillemas he had to be treated for on his multiple stay at the hospital to treat his many injuries. Yet people chose to call Steele's actions incorrect and question his motives.atsch A sad state imo for boxing fans to think that way, when all the medical evidence of Chavez' savagery bestowed upon Meldrick Taylor that night is clear as day!:-(
If after the first two questions (the second of which Taylor did not even have a chance to respond to before Steele waved his arms to call off the fight, which put a look of despair on Taylor's face - proof that he was not that out of it) Steele had asked Taylor to walk forward, and Taylor did, and the fight was allowed to go on, who would have complained after the fight that the ref should have stopped it? NOBODY. There would have been NO controversy in what Steele had done. Doesn't anyone find that a bit weird? And who was not shocked when Steele stopped that fight? I know some of you will deny it, but who didn't have the opinion that Larry Merchant voiced right at the minute: "If he gets up, he probably wins the fight". Now I think Steele did have his reasons for stopping it, but you are a blind nuthugger if you think that there is no controversy to this fight ending, it's as simple as that and every one that is not a nuthugger of Chavez will agree with me.
Another question to ask is, putting a different referee in that situation, would they have all done what Steele did? I bet everything I have that the answer is no. I think different referees would have done different things in that situation. Not all of them would have stopped the fight. Again, if you think they do, you are a Chavez nuthugger, simple as that.
Simple question Scientist......Do you think Taylor was fit to continue? If you think he was, then there is absolutely nothing I can say, and I wont even bother discussing this issue with you. What are you asking of Steele in this circumstance? ......to continue to probe Taylor untill he says, "yes, I can continue?" Taylor was instinctively holding himself up by the ring ropes for crying out loud......you're telling us that Steele was in error because Taylor may have been somewhat aware of his dillema when he cried out "what!" when Steele waived it off? ......that still is not showing anybody that he's fit to continue! Where the hell did Taylor do or go to after Steele waived it off????? He stood right in that corner Scientist, holding himself up because he may very well have fallen flat on his face had he chased Richard Steele around the ring looking for an explanation of why he stopped the fight. Yeah, it hit Meldrick Taylor smack in the face, when he saw Steele holding him and waiving it off, but before then, he was'nt coherent enough to even be in a mindset to do things to make sure the ref did'nt stop the fight. Tell us all here scientist, what Taylor did before or even after the stoppage, (besides staying right in the same corner without moving) that would tell us that he was ready to continue!" Spin it to me, cause I'm listening? :rofl :rofl :rofl Proof that he was not that out of it!:rofl :rofl :rofl Sorry, but I had to laugh at that one! ......and Steele should have let it continue because Merchant said so? "If he gets up, he wins the fight!":nut
No you didn't. Why, REALLY, do you think that Steele didn't ask Taylor to show he was ok? In the final round of a championship fight, is it so unreasonable to make absolutely sure a boxer is unable to continue? He should have asked "Are you ok to continue?", wait for a few seconds, and then make a decision. In other words, he was able to look around at his corner, ie. the response that all boxers are trained to do if they're knocked down and are cognisant. Of course it is. Frustrating too, I imagine? I think it's a huge simplification to assign all the brain damage of a boxer to one single fight early on his career. So Steele was basing his decisions on his x-ray vision into Taylor's bonestructure? That's certainly new info. Do you think if it was Chavez in that position that he would have been stopped? Be honest.
Is the fact that he didn't throttle Steele proof that he couldn't have continued the fight? I've seen fights stopped where the defeated fighter is still throwing punches and doesn't so much as complain when the ref calls the fight off. Is that proof they couldn't continue fighting? Hell, Duva was protesting the stoppage so violently perhaps Taylor felt he didn't need to. Now, I'll admit, Taylor looked in a bad way in the corner, and the likelihood would have been that Chavez would have put Taylor out had it gone on, but I am not convinced that if he was asked by Steele to walk forward, or even if Steele waited for an answer to his second question that Taylor wouldn't have given one. If Taylor could have done as much, I think there's an argument that the fight should have been allowed to continue, especially (as Larry Merchant said) given the magnitude and the tide of the fight.
What's so funny? He reacted to the stoppage. Is that not proof that he had his faculties together somewhat? Merchant's view was what the vast majority of the people watching the fight would have been.
This content is protected In the final round of a championship fight, is it so unreasonable to make absolutely sure a boxer is unable to continue? Then you're asking Steele to buy time and go beyond the call and duties he would normally do in any other round. This content is protected This content is protected He should have asked "Are you ok to continue?", wait for a few seconds, and then make a decision. This content is protected In other words, he was able to look around at his corner, ie. the response that all boxers are trained to do if they're knocked down and are cognisant. This content is protected Of course it is. Frustrating too, I imagine? I think it's a huge simplification to assign all the brain damage of a boxer to one single fight early on his career. This content is protected So Steele was basing his decisions on his x-ray vision into Taylor's bonestructure? That's certainly new info. This content is protected Do you think if it was Chavez in that position that he would have been stopped? Be honest? This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected