Has Manny Pacquiao surpassed Ray Robinson as the GOAT (Pound-for-pound)?

No

 

The world champions Sugar Ray beat were real ones. Many of Manny's would have been alphabet imposters. The fact that Manny was a flyweight world champ early on & was then trading blows with the likes of Oscar, Sugar Shane & Antonio Margarito is pretty astonishing though. My take on Manny's career is that at his peak his performances were super-human. That could be because they were.

 

Pacquiao was just never as hard to beat at his best as Robinson was at his and Robinson's streaks are going to demonstrate that clearly. But even if not, his titles and resume are going to stack up above Pac. Hank Armstrong, Greb, Ali, Ray Leonard, Mayweather, Louis, Charles, Langford, and some others should likely come before Pac, I feel.

 

Using "Pound for Pound logic" without a question.

After Louis Ray was the same size as his eras HW champs. Or even larger. Putting on a show at WW and MW and failing to win even the LHW belt is a real problem when calling him the P4P GOAT because thats supposed to be about little people breaking glass ceilings. During Robinsons era the best fighters his size aimed for a low ceiling while Robinson went for the floor. Even at MW Robinson hit the scene once Murderers Row was on the way out. Robinson looked amazing but whose to say Ezzard Charles or Lloyd Marshall and a whole host of other people couldn't have looked every bit as amazing cutting as far?

For me the thing about Manny thats so compelling is he makes other P4P GOAT contenders like Duran look bad by winning the sort of fights easily they'd get participation trophies for doing okay in. This site had a thread saying Manny would never win at 126 pounds because he was too small and that was a bridge too far. Every once and awhile it gets bumped. But that thread is really the best case for Manny I've ever seen.

 

Fun fact Manny drew a world champion taller then Ray Robinson at 46 years of age.

Really the only thing holding Manny back from fighting at 160 was his own weight class was all the big fights were at 147/154. This was not the case with Ray Robinson the best fighters in the world were at LHW and HW and if they were at MW it wasn't when he was there.

Manny didn't top out at 154 because it was bridge too far.

 

Manny is an ATG but I feel like he’s just beatable. He’s lost at basically every weight class. Guys like Floyd and Usyk just seem unbeatable cause they can adapt at the highest level, Manny might be p4p more of a physical specimen at his peak like Roy but neither could adapt at the same level. Those two are the GOAT, 1a and 1b. Ray Robinson and those old guys are overrated af, for their era they were great sure but in terms of pure skill Ray Robinson couldn’t even lace Shakurs boots today.

 

To be clear, I do not think Pacquiao is the GOAT. That being said, if achievements were the only criterion then Manny would have a great case for being at or near the top of the list.

As far as Robinson goes, I have thought for a long time that welterweight Sugar Ray and lightweight Roberto Duran are the two greatest fighters. I realize that is parsing out their careers and you have to take the full career into account. Middleweight Robinson is a different story. He won the championship five times because he was no longer great. He could not consistently fight at the high level needed to be great.

I have heard for more than a half century that SRR is the greatest fighter of all time. I used to believe that because everyone said it but as time has gone on I believe it less and less. I would put Robby above Manny but I am not convinced either is the GOAT.

 

Charles & Greb are the GOATs imo... certainly in terms of resume anyway.. Pacquiao fought in an easier era than the likes of SRR.. he had softer gloves, PEDs, pre day weigh ins, more divisions (more diluted talent pool) more trinket belts (making it easier to become 'champion') & lower fight frequency too which means less toll on the body.. he also never really sealed the deal with his main rivals JMM or Floyd .. Pac is a great great fighter but he's not in my top 10 on a par with men like those above & Pep, Walker, Armstrong etc.. No modern(ish) fighter is, barring maybe Duran..

 

Yes.

Pac
Duran
SRR is my list in order

 

SMH at this thread.

 

How many ‘catchweight’ fights was Robinson in? Robinson also was beating THE champion not one of four trinket belt holder’s like Pacquiao was doing. How many times was Robinson savagely KOed?

 

He lost too many times. Marquez best him at least twice maybe thrice. He lost to Timothy Bradley that wasn't a robbery.

No. Not even close. Mayweather shits allowed Pacman.

 

So you also have a problem with Sugar Ray Robinson having 19 losses as well?