Question for the boxing historians: if Top 10 rankings existed before 1922, which of Jack Johnson's and Jack Dempsey opponents you think would be classified as Top 10, Top 5, Top 3, best available opponents etc. Is it even possible to compile this kind of a list?
Very hard to compile it. Dempsey - pre title - Fred Fulton would likely be top 10, Billy Miske would probably be top 5, Bill Brennan would be borderline top 10, Carl Morris would be borderline top 10. But very hard to say. During his reign, Miske was ill, Carpentier was a light-heavy and i don't think he was a legit top 10 heavy, Brennan was still borderline top 10, Fripo would probably be top 15, Gibbons would be borderline top 10 despite being a light-heavy. Johnson - pre title - i think maybe Jeannette would be top 10. McVea was very inexperienced and Langford was only a middleweight at the time. Perhaps @mcvey can shed some light. During his reign, i am not sure if most of the guys he beat would be legit top 10 guys.
Dempsey's opponents ranked in Top 5: Willard, Miske, Gibbons, Carpentier, Sharkey, Brennan. Top 10: Fireman Flynn, Gunboat Smith, Firpo, Fulton, Meehan. Johnson Top 5: Burns, Fireman Flynn Top 10: Kaufmann McVey, Jeannette and Langford were too inexperienced or young.
I think Fulton is clearly top 5 when they fought. Fulton was supposed to be the next heavyweight champ. He was the heir apparent. Miske May have been sick but based on resume and the public mostly unaware he’d be ranked and highly. Firpo borderline a very hyped guy with little resume. A Michael Grant Type. Sharkey a number 1 contender or 2 based on where you have Dempsey with Tunney as champ. Tunney was a number 1 contender. Brennan was borderline top 10 Gibbons and Carpentier would be top 10 and similar today of outstanding cruiserweights moving into the heavy division. Like an Opetai.
I have a ranking from that time the problem is it has MWs who didn't really fight at HW. Still I think all of Johnson/Dempseys title opponents were ranked at some point. Except maybe Jim Johnson who had a case to be ranked. I linked it below. https://web.archive.org/web/20060515214215/http://geocities.com/mgpaul2/TOP10.htm Tony Ross wasn't ranked well when he fought Johnson but he went on a run later on. Jim Flynn and Tony Ross basically nuked the whole "great white hope" thing. Fulton was like proto Liston or Foreman if they had a faulty chin.
A very good question. Jack Johnson would have a positive embarrassment of top ten wins. While he is often missing the best men, when it matters the most, he is very active against men who are seen as potential title challengers. I might give a more detailed breakdown later. I think that a few of the men that Dempsey fought on his way up to the title could have been ranked, and most or all of his title challengers woudl have been. He probably comes out with Rocky Marciano type numbers. In his case Ring rankings existed at the end of his title reign, so we can extrapolate backwards. It is probably fairly safe to assume that Firpo and Gibbons woudl have been ranked when he fought them.
Let's look at the first Ring Magazine Rankings. Men that Dempsey fought are highlighted in red, and Dempsey himself is highlighted in yellow: 1924 This content is protected , Champion Harry Wills This content is protected Charley Weinert Quintin Romero Rojas Jack Renault This content is protected George Godfrey Jim Maloney Erminio Spalla 1925 This content is protected , Champion Harry Wills This content is protected Jack Renault Bud Gorman George Godfrey This content is protected Young Bob Fitzsimmons Paolino Uzcudun Jim Maloney Harry Persson King Solomon Johnny Risko Ray Neuman Jim Keeley 1926 This content is protected , Champion This content is protected This content is protected Jim Maloney Paolino Uzcudun Harry Wills Jack Renault Harry Persson Knute Hansen Johnny Risko Sully Montgomery Sandy Seifert Jack DeMave Monte Munn Arthur De Kuh
Year end rankings I once compiled, a la Ring, from Johnson's first rating until the Ring's first ratings. 1902 Champion Jeffries 2 Fitzsimmons 3 Ruhlin 4 Martin 5 Johnson 6 Gardner 7 OBrien 8 Root 9 Hart 10 Carter 1903 Champion Jeffries 2 Fitzsimmons 3 Johnson 4 Ruhlin 5 Gardner 6 Root 7 Hart 8 OBrien 9 Armstrong 10 McVey 1904 Champion Jeffries 2 Johnson 3 Hart 4 Root 5 OBrien 6 Gardner 7 Ruhlin 8 Ferguson 9 Martin 10 McVey 1905 Champion Hart 2 Johnson 3 OBrien 4 Jeanette 5 Root 6 Fitzsimmons 7 Ruhlin 8 Kaufman 9 J Twin Sullivan 10 Schreck 1906 Champion Burns 2 Johnson 3 OBrien 4 Langford 5 Jeanette 6 McVey 7 Kaufman 8 Schreck 9 Hart 10 Ruhlin 1907 Champion Burns 2 Johnson 3 Kaufman 4 Langford 5 Jeanette 6 McVey 7 OBrien 8 Schreck 9 Jim Flynn 10 Sullivan 1908 Champion Johnson 2 Langford 3 Kaufman 4 Burns 5 Jeanette 6 McVey 7 OBrien 8 Hart 9 Ross 10 Schreck 1909 Champion Johnson 2 Langford 3 Jeanette 4 McVey 5 Kaufman 6 Ketchell 7 OBrien 8 Ferguson 9 Lang 10 Schreck 1910 Champion Johnson 2 Langford 3 Jeanette 4 McVey 5 Kaufman 6 Burns 7 Lang 8 Jim Flynn 9 Dan Flynn 10 Curran 1911 champion Johnson 2 McVey 3 Langford 4 Jeanette 5 Wells 6 Jim Flynn 7 Al Palzar 8 Carl Morris 9 Dan Flynn 10 Clarke 1912 Champion Johnson 2 Langford 3 Jeanette 4 McVey 5 Gunboat Smith 6 Willard 7 Ross 8 Mc Carthy 9 Jim Flynn 10 Palzar 1913 Champion Johnson 2 Smith 3 Langford 4 Jeanette 5 McVey 6 Jim Johnson 7 Pelkey 8 Willard 9 Moran 10 Carpentier 1914 Champion Johnson 2 Langford 3 Jeanette 4 McVey 5 Carpentier 6 Clarke 7 Dillon 8 Wills 9 Levinsky 10 Coffey 1915 Champion Willard 2 Johnson 3 Moran 4 Dillon 5 Wills 6 McVey 7 Jeanette 8 coffey 9 Langford 10 Morris 1916 CHAMPION Willard 2 Wills 3 Miske 4 Dillon 5 Morris 6 Levinsky 7 Moran 8 Weinert 9 McVey 10 Jeanette 1917 Champion Willard 2 Wills 3 Fulton 4 Langford 5 Norfolk 6 Miske 7 Greb 8 Dempsey 9 Jeanette 10 Gibbons 1918 Champion Willard 2 Wills 3 Dempsey 4 Fulton 5 Gibbons 6 Greb 7 Miske 8 Meehan 9 Madden 10 Jeanette 1919 Champion Dempsey 2 Wills 3 Fulton 4 Greb 5 Gibbons 6 Carpentier 7 Miske 8 Johnson 9 Norfolk 10 Brennan 1920 Champion Dempsey 2 Wills 3 Fulton 4 Greb 5 Gibbons 6 Carpentier 7 Miske 8 Norfolk 9 Tunney 10 Weinert 1921 Champion Dempsey 2 Wills 3 Fulton 4 Gibbons 5 Greb 6 Carpentier 7 Miske 8 Tunney 9 Beckett 10 Brennan 1922 Champion Dempsey 2 Wills 3 Greb 4 Gibbons 5 Miske 6 Tunney 7 F.Johnson 8 Brennan 9 Beckett 10 Carpentier 1923 Champion Dempsey 2 Wills 3 Firpo 4 Tunney 5 Carpentier 6 Miske 7 Gibbons 8 Greb 9 Renault 10 F.Johnson
A deeper dive on Jack Johnsons opposition: Frank Childs Possibly ranked. He had just lost his coloured title to Dever Ed Martin but had rebounded with a win over Joe Walcott. George Gardiner Probably right owing to his win over Jack Root in his previous fight. Denver Ed Martin Almost certainly ranked the first time they fought due to his long winning streak, and coloured title claim. Possibly ranked the second time due to his win over Sam McVea in his previous fight. Sam McVea Almost certainly ranked the first time they fought, due to his winning streak, and calls for Jeffries to fight him. Probably ranked the second time they fought due to his win over Denver Ed Martin in his previous fight. Possibly still hanging in the rankings the third time they fought. Sandy Ferguson Possibly ranked the second time they fought due to his draw against Gus Ruhlin. Probably ranked the third time they fought due to his win over Bob Armstrong. Possibly still hanging on the fourth time they fought. Marvin Hart Almost certainly ranked due to his long run of form. Jack Munro Possibly ranked because he had not lost since challenging Jeffries for the title. Joe Jeanette Possibly ranked the third time they fought due to his run of form, including a DQ win over Jack Johnson himself. Probably ranked the fourth time due to his win over Sam Langford. Sam Langford Possibly ranked due to his win over Joe Jeanette in his previous fight. Fireman Flynn Possibly ranked the first time they fought due to his winning streak. Almost certainly ranked the second time they fought due to his winning streak. Tommy Burns Obviously ranked. Al Kaufman Almost certainly ranked dud to his long winning streak. Jess Willard Almost certainly ranked due to his recent run of form. Not making the cut Philadelphia Jack O’Brien, poor recent form. Tony Ross, poor recent form. Stanley Ketchell, debut at heavyweight, but ranked at middle and light heavy. Jim Jeffries, might have been gifted a #1 ranking just for coming out of retirement, and he might not. Frank Moran, poor recent form. Conclusion We are looking at Larry Holmes type numbers here.
A deeper dive on Jack Dempsey’s opposition: Bill Brennan Possibly ranked the first time they fought due to the draw against Battling Levinsky. Probably ranked the second time they fought due to his unbeaten streak. Fred Fulton Almost certainly ranked as he was on a long streak of form and viewed by many as the outstanding challenger. Battling Levinsky Possibly ranked despite his losses to Madden and Greb, due to his win over Caly Turner. Billy Miske Almost certainly ranked the first time they fought, due to his long run of form, and draw against Fulton. Probably ranked the second time they fought, as he had not lost since their previous encounter. Jess Willard Obviously ranked. Georges Carpintier Probably ranked due to his long run of form and win over Battling Levinsky. Tommy Gibbons Almost certainly ranked, as he featured in the early Ring annual Rankings, after he had already lost to Dempsey. Luis Firpo Almost certainly ranked, as he featured in the early Ring annual Rankings, after he had already lost to Dempsey. Gene Tunney Was ranked both times Jack Sharkey Was ranked. Missing the cut A lot of Dempsey’s early opponents were name fighters, but their recent for makes it unlikely that they would have held a ranking, notably Gunboat Smith, Carl Morris, Fireman Flynn, Arthur Pelkey, and Dan Porky Flynn. Conclusion Overall we are looking at Marciano type numbers, and in some cases it would depend on whether Ring Magazine interpreted certain fights as being at heavyweight or light heavyweight.
