We have no evidence that Harry Greb was that good.

Nobody managed to defeat Gene Tunney besides Greb. And he arguably did it twice. That alone is enough to rate him with the best boxers in history. The first fight was one of the biggest beatdowns in boxing history. Both eyes cut, bleeding out of his mouth and nose, Tunney reportedly collapsed on his way to the dressing room after the fight. Maybe Greb‘s style was ugly to watch, but he was damn effective and has one of the deepest resumes in boxing history

 

Most would disagree but crack on.. it's been done to death, there's multiple threads on the topic arguing for or against.. i doubt you'll find anyone wanting to regurgitate it all with you.

It's pretty easy to assess his greatness regardless.. find me another natural MW (which Greb was) who has the calibre of wins that he had?

Both Gene Tunney & Tommy Gibbons were undefeated when he beat them (in most people's eyes multiple times)... the great Mike Gibbons was on something like a 50 fight win streak & Mickey Walkers was around 25... then throw in multiple wins over Tommy Loughran. Those alone are exceptional. Especially when u consider the framewor he was operating in.. zero PEDs, fewer weight divisions, higher fight frequency, thinner gloves & no pre day weight grifting all made for a much more difficult playing field than today.. to put together the resume he did (especially his 1919 run) under those circumstances is quite remarkable.

You can try cite i.e Langford or Charles but don't.. because they both filled out into naturally bigger individuals than Greb.. who usually weighed between 158 and 165 lbs at his peak & against HWs he often weighed in around 165–170 lbs. In fact even in Grebs last fights way past his prime just before his death he weight between 159/165lbs.. so its clear what his range was..

That you dismiss NWS wins is your prerogative.. but even with just his PTS wins his resume is still an ATG one.. i dismiss much of todays sport.. who's clean who isn't? Are we really watching two WWs or did one man become a SMW overnight? Is fighting once or twice a year really challenging yourself? Etc etc..

You think todays 3 judge system is vastly superior? Go tell triple G that.. in fact you could argue a NWS decision actually gave a better consensus as to who reallly won.

Swings & roundabouts pal.. Greb is a Rushmore fighter whichever way you cut it.

 

Highly informative.

 

Harry beat Tunny who was handicapped early from cuts once and never again over 5 fights. The better fighter adapts and wins the rematch.

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But the fourth was when the tide began turning, with the pristine body punching of Gene beginning to take its toll. From that point onward, Greb became “unusually passive,” as his rapid fire attacks ceased and were instead replaced with continuous clinching. Tunney battered him for the rest of the fight, and in the last round made a request to Gene;

“The ferocity of the hammering Greb took is indicated by a remark he made toward the end. In a clinch, he said, ‘Gene, don’t knock me out.’

 

Pretty well stated. I don't find NWS worthless. Not much point in arguing because option's don't really matter. But I do believe in your statement "actually gave a better consensus as to who really won" You can cross reference multiple newspapers and get just as much of a consensus than actual judges. Not not mention most major fights have a round by round breakdown dating back to the 1880's. To state it's worthless it really lacking any kind of actuality to the events that took place.

I liked your breakdown.

 

Unless Im mistaken Greb won the fourth fight though? Their second fight was also considered by most to be a robbery. So doesnt that shoot your theory in the foot? One could argue that Tunney asserted his dominance in their fifth and final fight but the fact remains that by this point Greb was well past his prime and had over 270 fights while Gene was in his absolute prime. Its also important to say that even if Harry only beat Gene Tunney once in five fights, which is heavily debated, nobody else could do that. Nobody. Tommy Loughran couldnt. Jack Dempsey couldnt. Leo Houck couldnt. Jeff Smith couldnt. Battling Levinsky couldnt. Georges Carpentier couldnt. All of those men were hall of famers and none scored a single win against Tunney. Nobody else did either. Greb did though and did it despite being blind in one eye, nine years into his career, having over 220 fights under his belt, and being the smaller man in every metric including being outweighed by 12 pounds.

 

Not sure I follow.

 

Wonder with guys like that if you could bring them thru time and set them up as a ringer sparring partner for unsuspecting Roy Jones or Hagler P2P how that would go off. Would those guys be shocked at the fight this guy was bringing.

 

The above info with others like Greb's 1919 45-0 run make him the GOAT.

 

I miss McVey, man.

 

The man’s record says otherwise. I do think the sport has changed to much where the boxers look unrecognizable but they were fighting with different gloves 20+ rounders, different rings, different rules. If they were raised today they’d be fighting different styles with access to film, better trainers, equipment etc. I don’t like comparing pre 1930 fighters to today. But he was certainly worthy of being called great for record alone.

 

Johnny_B

He said he'd beat Marciano in a boxing match and would spark Mayweather in a street fight. Legendary poster!

 

This. Marshall Miles, who at one time managed Joe Louis and used to frequent my local barbershop in the early 90's was at the first Greb-Tunney fight and said how amazing Greb was.

Tunney himself talked about how much he learned and improved after having his fights with Greb. Here is a piece from 1926 with Tunney giving Greb credit with his development.

Gene Tunney, heavyweight champion of the world, had just returned to his home from Pittsburgh, where he was a pallbearer at the funeral of Harry Greb, a two-time champion.

Tunney was a great admirer of Greb, and the tragic result of the operation which ended the eccentric German's earthly career deeply touched Dempsey's conqueror.

"Everybody said Greb was a clown fighter," commented Tunney. "They called him a windmill and a freak, a tireless puncher who won his fights mainly because he had speed and could keep slapping and cuffing away."

Box and Shift

"To me Greb was a great fighter. Indeed, I think he was the greatest fighter, in sports, I ever saw. He could box as well as anybody when he tried. He was a hard hitter when he set out to hit. He had a fine defense, and there was nothing wrong with his footwork."

"Of course Greb had certain marked eccentricities in the ring. He was not what the game calls an orthodox fighter. But there was much more to him than clownish gestures and spectacular acrobatics. Behind all this was a real fighting background and a rare courage."

Tunney gives credit to Greb for his own gradual development into a heavyweight champion. Tunney fought Greb five times. Once Greb beat him. That was, incidentally, the only time in his life Tunney was whipped. It was from Greb that Tunney won the light heavyweight championship.

"I learned a lot in my fights with Greb," admitted the champion. "I learned among other things, the value of sharp-shooting, for it was necessary to be a sharp-shooter to catch Greb. He was always on the go, side-stepping, retreating, advancing, always moving."

Improvement Notes

"Fighting Greb, I gained confidence in myself. I could see myself improve from fight to fight. The first time I met him he whipped me. The next time we fought I whipped him. When we matched again I whipped him even worse."

"The last time we fought was at St. Paul. I could have knocked him out that night. When the fight ended Greb said to me, 'I've fought you for the last time, Gene. You are too tough. Go and get Dempsey.' Greb was the first fighter of consequence who admitted I was ready for Dempsey."

Tunney says Greb was the most courageous fighter he ever met, or ever saw.

Never Backed Away

"I think everyone who saw the fight at Philadelphia will admit that I made Dempsey back up more than once. Well, I fought Greb five times and I never made him back up a single time. I knocked him back with punches frequently, but not once did he ever back away."

Tunney thinks the quality that made Greb an extraordinary fighter was his native enthusiasm for the game.

"You don't find that in many fighters, but Greb had it to a marked degree. That's one reason why he preferred to fight himself into condition instead of training on the road and in the gymnasiums. It was more fun."
https://imgur.com/gzExEbg

 

You do know when you write something this long no one’s going to read it.