The last great heavyweight....!

I will say this, what Ali lost in Exile was his reflexes and his legs were maybe 70% instead of 100% I watched his whole career (and am rewatching it now) and I watch his fight with Frazier, then watch the next fight with Jimmy Ellis and he looks the splitting image of when he fought Liston.

I think yes, Ali lost his prime, but his celebrity status increased and he got lazier.

 

Another vote for Wlad.

 

And that means that sometimes how the stars align is more important than your athletic level. Would we remember Frazier today if Foreman had been born a few years earlier? Would he be considered an ATG if Ali hadn't returned from exile?

 

Context plays its part, of course, but one places a lot of faith in the assumptions of what an alternative history would look like and how it might be perceived.

Using Frazier is probably not the best example for a couple of reasons because – 1. Just prior to Ali's exile, there was a considerable buzz around Frazier already and it was fated he'd meet Ali anyway, and – 2. Frazier in many people's eyes was still the challenger going into the FOTC.

 

By the minority of the public. Frazier was the universally recognized champ at the time, Ali was a contender with a claim to the championship.

 

What makes you think it was a minority? What percentage of people did this so-called minority represent, do you think?


It was far from being a fringe idea.

Ali was listed as the Ring Champ throughout '67, '68, and '69, until he declared himself out of the picture and gave Frazier/Ellis his blessing in early 1970. Not only had it effectively required Ali's approval to proceed, he was immediately installed as the #1 contender on his return (He would be cleared to fight later that year).

While there are a plethora of literary sources to describe the same sentiments, the position can perhaps be best summed up by a Sports Illustrated piece with the title: 'Welcome Back Ali' (Kane, M. Sep 14 1970), in which the perspectives were made clear.

It opened with:

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And later states:

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This sense that Frazier needed to legitimize his claim only accumulated and intensified between Ali's return and the time of their fight. It's the kind of momentum that is rarely, if ever, driven by small numbers.

 

The majority of the public stopped recognizing Ali as the champion as early as the court decision to revoke his license in May '67. The last sanctioning body stripped him in '69. At this time, Ali was saying he won't come back to boxing. Was training his buddy Ellis to beat Frazier. In February '70 Ali officially retired and wanted to give his belt to the winner of Frazier vs Ellis but wasn't allowed. Even Nat Fleisher, Mr. Championships Are To Be Won And Lost In The Ring, stopped recognizing Ali (whom he still called Clay) at this point as he voluntary gave up the title. He wasn't introduced as the champion during his bouts with Quarry and Bonavena and was introduced as a contender in his bout against Frazier.

The Ring's article on this is very informative:

In February, 1970, Cassius Clay's expressed determination not to appear in the ring again as a professional be came more emphatic than ever. He said that he would present to the winner of the Frazier-Ellis fight the world championship belt which had been awarded to him by The Ring Magazine in 1964.
A few days before the Frazier-Ellis contest, Eddie Dooley, chairman of the New York State Athletic Commission, ruled that Clay would not be permitted to make the presentation in the Madison Square Garden ring. Cassius there upon announced that he would ship the belt to his Louisville Alma Mater, Central High School.

Nat Fleischer, editor and publisher of The Ring, who had become friendly with Clay at the 1960 Olympic Games in Rome, where Cassius won the light heavyweight title, called a staff conference and asked for a determination of the Clay case. It was the strong sentiment of the staff that Clay had given up the world championship of his free will and that The Ring had been released from its commitments on his behalf.
The Ring decision was made without a dissenting voice. It also was voted that the winner of the Frazier-Ellis fight would be recognized by this magazine as the new heavyweight champion of the world.

If, as many skeptics predict, Clay changes his mind about quitting the ring and the lush paydays which would become available to him if he were cleared by the Supreme Court, Cassius would have to appear as the challenger, and emphatically not as the champion.
His position would be similar to the one in which Jim Jeffries found himself on July 4, 1910, at Reno, Nev., where he challenged Jack Johnson, the title holder, and was knocked out in 15 rounds.

[...]

The Ring wishes to take the opportunity to thank those of its readers who dissented pleasantly from its policy in backing Cassius as the champion, against the claims of Ellis, who won the WBA elimination tournament, and Frazier, whose title claims were sup ported by six states and some foreign countries. Dissenting readers never denied The Ring’s right to support Clay.
The position now adopted by The Ring will be acclaimed by the British Board of Boxing Control and many other governing bodies.
Elimination of Clay will clear up a heavyweight muddle which hurt all boxing throughout the world. The Ring admitted the existence of this injury, but, nevertheless, fought for the right.

The Ring offers its congratulations to Frazier as the new champion, and its condolences to Ellis, who was a gentle man all the way. Their campaigns toward the con frontation in New York were happily and pleasantly devoid of personalities, and that scurrilous vituperation which sometimes has entered into such situations. Boxing has grown up.

 

Either Lewis or Wlad. I'm still undecided on where I place Wlad in terms of greatness.

 

You've used an entire article to convey something I had already expressed (and more) in a few lines:

"Ali was listed as the Ring Champ throughout '67, '68, and '69, until he declared himself out of the picture and gave Frazier/Ellis his blessing in early 1970. Not only had it effectively required Ali's approval to proceed, he was immediately installed as the #1 contender on his return (He would be cleared to fight later that year)."


Sorry, but you have not advanced the discussion with this.

 

No it's not far enough, I'd rather be sentenced to 48 hours in jail than be forced to watch the replay of that fight..12 rounds of posturing and feinting , alleging I'm gonna hit ya, I'm gonna hit ya .
That that effort resulted in Fury being a world champion is nauseating .

 

It was a weird fight

 

By what metric is Wlad not a great heavyweight champion?

 

Usky is the last great heavyweight so far.

 

In what world are Lewis—or Wlad—to be ranked ahead of a Larry Holmes?

Currently, Holmes is the last great heavyweight champion.
Since Usyk is still active, I don't think he can be ranked just yet. I’ll reserve that for another few years.

 

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The question wasn't which is the last heavyweight to be better than Larry Holmes, it's which is the last great heavyweight.

Wlad is the most recent ATG heavyweight champion, and Lewis before him.