“You either retire as an GOAT, or you fight long enough to end up as a greedy belly”

I honestly think Usyk is lucky to compete in divisions which historically hasn't had a lot of high level pressure fighters, especially in this era of mega fatties and over muscled roid freaks (and before someone mentions it, no Dubois is not a pressure fighter, he's a centre range power punching banger). The first time he faces someone who was actually able to keep up a jerky, frenetic pace and he looked technically lost. Awful on the inside especially. HW is so dire in terms of skills that you can literally be missing entire boxing skill trees and still dominate as long as you prepare decently.

Technically Usyk is just a lesser version of Lomachenko. It's why I don't usually like ranking HWs p4p: if you made them smaller (but relative size in comparison to their HHw size advantage / disadvantage) and had them box as they do but against a LWs or WWs they would likely cop multiple losses or get knocked out. The talent level at HW simply isn't there the way it is at lower divisions. There's a big separation between 'elite' and 'good' fighters which you simply don't see in other divisions.

I personally don't consider Usyk a great ring general (though he isn't bad) but a physicality fighter who relies on his massive speed advantage primarily. He's sound enough fundamentally, especially for HW, but he hasn't shown anything adaptive enough to rank him with the actual p4p ATG ring generals and ring iqs imo. If anyone wants to see what an actual great ring general does to a top class striker from another art they should watch Chang vs Chitalada 1 and see how it's done (and bear in mind Chitalada cemented himself as one of the best ever in his weight class afterwards). Hell, even Takuma Inoue was able to do it impressively and clearly against Tenshin and Tenshin is one of the top talents in all combat sports. Usyk's actual skill level is overrated p4p and is majorly flattered by the state of the heavier divisions, which this bout against Rico definitely shows, for me anyway.

 

Yes. So much yes.

The rabid Usyk fanboys just somehow don't get it. Most Heavyweights of this era don't know how to fight. We're in an era where Deontay Wilder was at one point considered the best in the world and Fabio Wardley was the #1 contender. A slow, plodding, no stamina old man like Zhang with **** footwork and mediocre defence was at one point a top 3 HW because he was 6'6, 280 lbs, had a massive munch and knew the dark art of circling around your opponent. The hype train surrounding his for a while was mad.

Even Usyk's opponents, while the best of the field, are a mess. Fury's got a solid ring IQ, great recovery ability, good feet and some subtle skills, but mechanically he's absolute dog****, is pretty hittable, and once you get past his "makes you think he's doing something while he's actually doing nothing" illusion, he's very vulnerable. Joshua is kind of the opposite, solid mechanics and fundamentals with some unwanted stiffness, but his ring IQ is subpar, he doesn't like getting hit, and panics under chaos. Dubois is a bulldozer with a good jab, some ok in and out movement, and that's about it. And he quits when he knows he can't beat you. Yeah they're not terrible, but it's sad that these 3 guys are the best of the era aside from Usyk (and potentially Kabayel). Put them in any other division and they get an ATG beating.

It's why I've previously said that Usyk is overrated P4P. Sure he's beating giants and has to overcome 20-40 lbs weight disadvantages, but the guys he beat at HW are just not that good. It's crazy how Usyk's rabid fans think these 20-25 lbs are enough to compensate for the lack of ability these guys have, and think it's enough to still have him as the P4P#1 when both Inoue and Crawford beat top 10 P4Pers. Not to mention that the lack of variety in styles is shocking.

I agree on him as a ring general too. He's not bad, but his generalship is not P4P ATG worthy. He's hypnotising stiff, basic fighters with his lead hand work, opens them up with the hand-fight, and overwhelms them thanks to his better work-rate, stamina and faster feet. Far from bad, and in fact very good, but this does not make you Archie Moore. Speaking of Moore, I firmly believe Rico fought like a Walmart version of him (probably not intentionally though, I doubt Rico even knows who Moore is) with that pressuring style, his almost constant taking of the initiative and active guard. I think a younger early 50s Moore might be the type of fighter to beat Usyk. That style looks like poison to him.

 

Top post. 4 of his now 9 HW bouts have been against guys with negative ring iq lmao, some of the worst seen in a ring at top level (AJ against Ruiz or Dubois, anyone?). Again, not enough variety of styles or adaptation to put Usyk up with the p4p ring generals of all time imo, as you said. My personal opinion is that Loma is actually the height of this particular 'southpaw soviet' style h2h and he doesn't get anywhere near enough props for fighting bigger skilled guys, especially compared to the overrating Usyk gets. People not even including him on the p4p list before his first retirement. He also managed to adjust his style somewhat against pressure fighters which we haven't actually seen Usyk do.

Personally I'd pick FOTC Frazier or prime Tyson as the worst for Usyk, stylistically. The pressure and body punching would be horrendous for him. Both also have great chins and are big enough to negate any size differential. Both match or exceed the speed advantage usually relied on and both are ultra aggressive and dogged at their best. They would punch with him and not let Usyk rest at all. The jab would be shut down. You probably wouldn't see a stoppage but I personally think they'd be very clear beatings, especially later on.

There are some others I think are troubling on a stylistic level but would simply be too small. Guys like Marciano, Patterson etc. Moore would be interesting. Not sure about that one.

I think Ali would be a unique stylistic match up. He's the only one who can really outspeed (in movement, hand and reaction) and out aim Usyk in the mid range. And it's hard to pick against him given his pedigree.

 

I think it's a given Frazier and Tyson beat him. He's just not gonna get away from them. Maybe he can temporarily hypnotise Tyson, who sometimes took a step back to think about how to solve a problem before resuming his work, but I think he'll be somewhat fine for the most part. Frazier won't care though, he'll just give him a beating.

I'm curious how Dempsey would deal with him, either he stops Usyk in the early-mid rounds or gets stopped late in my mind. I think Marciano could get it done, even if he's not the favourite, against CW Usyk who hadn't bulked up yet and wasn't hurting guys as much back then. You don't beat Marciano by Boxing him when you can't blow him out and don't have a very significant size advantage imo.

 

Here come the hordes of golden era HW fans who insist that some 205 pound LEGEND would absolutely destroy Usyk, who has never been dropped, because a 260 pound guy gave a 39 year old untrained version of Usyk a tough fight.

Great break down fellas. All of Usyk's CW and WBSS opponents were as big or bigger than the golden era HW's. They sucked right? All the HW's Usyk defeated were way bigger than the golden era HW's. They sucked too, I assume? None would touch a belt?

 

30 or 40 yo Usyk?

 

I think we're seeing a backlash against the Usyk fans, so vocal and strident. (and youtube is going to town with ignorant comments about boxing itself)

The age thing: How old was Holyfield when he fought Rahman? 40 or 41? or when he fought Savarese? 45 or 46?

But Usyk has decentish power. If he rematches Rico and he has a good training camp he'll KO Rico much sooner. Should be an easy fix (if balls out training is easy, that is). He shouldn't need AJ to do his dirty work.

 

Lot of this reads like recency bias from one flat performance in a fight Usyk still won.
You can’t watch the Joshua fights (especially the second, where AJ actually showed solid ring IQ and a real gameplan) and the Fury fights (where Fury kept adapting and had real success in spots) and then claim Usyk has only faced negative-IQ opponents or can’t adapt. He’s clearly done it multiple times at both cruiserweight and heavyweight.

On Loma he’s great when he can dictate the fight, but Lopez shut him down early and he waited too long to react. Same thing against Haney. Twice he showed the same weakness: inability to fight effectively off the back foot. Usyk has never had that problem and has thrived against bigger, skilled guys in ways Loma never did at lightweight.

Frazier doesn’t have the size or power to bully Usyk the way a pressure fighter needs to. He also lacked a strong right hand to consistently trouble a good southpaw. Usyk’s judo/wrestling background gives him excellent inside work and clinch control he wouldn’t just lean back and get trapped on the ropes like Ali did. Pressure and vibes alone aren’t beating him.

Tyson is a more reasonable stylistic problem, and a prime motivated Holyfield with a good gameplan would be tough too. But both have clear shortcomings Usyk could exploit neither is a guaranteed win.

As for Ali, I don’t think he has the technical depth to solve Usyk. He’s phenomenal at what he does best, but when that was taken away (Norton, Frazier) he struggled. Usyk’s stance, feints, and pressure would do exactly that, and extra speed alone wouldn’t magically fix the puzzle.