Sonny Liston vs his biggest opponent Gehard Zech, 6'5, in good quality

Ali looked mediocre against 180 pound Henry Cooper and Doug Jones a mere 1 year prior to Liston they performed better than Liston and put Ali on his backside that doesn't automatically mean they would beat Sonny. But knowing you, you probably think they could lol

Karl Mildenberger doesn't have Alis speed and off statistics nothing close to his power with a KO percentage of 35%, nor was he as agile and was a hell of a lot more chinny. Styles make fights. Liston would have mauled Mildenberger even at that stage of his career. Mildenberger can't beat Liston at range and a firefight would favor Liston

 

If Bonavena really would have beaten Liston even in 1966 then Liston wasn't that good in the first place. Bonavena wasn't technically good and he didn't have any fast twitch traits, I don't rate him that highly beyond his durability and power which many heavyweights have. Bonavena was low key terrible, and his existence as a top contender makes me question the talent pool of the 60s and 70s

Maybe Liston is just overrated as hell i guess

 

Yeah that assumes Liston doesn't KO his ass so thats where the outlooks diverge. I don't buy this idea that Liston was shot in 1966, maybe in 1968, and saying Liston was that declined suggets Alis win wasn't that impressive. He still had enough in the tank to beat someone on Mildenbergers level, because Mildenberger was not elite, didn’t have any power, got floored by Bonavena 4 times and got kncoked out by 4 different characters throughout his whole career (2 of them being journeyman which suggets he was chinny). Liston in 1966 would not lose to someone like Dick Richardson

I am not going to favor Mildenberger just because he had good stamina and did better against Ali, Doug Jones did better against Ali and has done 15 rounds before that doesn't mean he would have a good chance at beating Liston in 1966

How is he going to take Liston into deep waters if he likely wouldn't outbox him at range doesn't have any notable power to punish Liston for making mistakes and is chinny ???? Liston KOs Mildenberger, maybe it would make more sense if Liston had a notable weakness against southpaws

 

1966 Liston is what's being discussed no ? Thats why I mentioned Doug Jones vs 1966 Liston, he is being used to show Ali struggled with lesser guys than Liston and i don't buy the idea that 1966 Liston was shot, he still had enough in the tank to beat Mildenberger. If he were to lose to Mildenberger he'd be totally shot

Mildenberger had no power, was far chinner than Ali, not as good on the backfoot, could not beat Liston at a long range power boxing, isn't better in the inside and while a solid top contender and a technical operator, wasn't that good.

You seemingly overrate Mildenberger because he was the only competent southpaw in the 60s heavyweight division

 

He wasn't THAT much better, theres no way he made that many improvements to his game in such a short time window. The point is Doug Jones only fought Ali 1 year prior to Liston and did much better, and you keep bringing up that Mildenberger did better against Ali than Liston did as a form of proof

Even a past it Liston is knocking Mildenberger spark out at some point in the fight. He had no power, probably a worse chin and can't beat Liston in a game of rangy power boxing. Liston would have to have a terrible gas tank after 12 rounds (he's comfortably done 12 rounds before), lack a measured pace, have significantly declined durability and score 0 knockdowns for Mildenberger to realistically win. Thats too many conditions. The conditions for a Liston victory are for him to not be seriously compromised, someone can be declined and not be seriously compromised. I rate Mildenberger as a top contender i don't rate him as an elite of the division not to mention a 35% KO ratio so I'd still favor Liston in 1966

 

Yeah and all the proof that Liston was compromised enough to lose to someone as mediocre as Bonavena in 1966 is in your head.

The idea that Bonavena would beat Liston prior to 1968 is laughable, just because he has durability and power ? Liston was on the slide but cmon, I simply rate Liston higher than you do. Simple as that. Bonavena was a wild gunslinger and he was mediocre at best