Deeper Resume -Lennox Lewis Or Joe Louis?

I don't think Lewis fought Foreman, Holmes, Bowe, Moorer, Sanders, Hide, Wlad, Ruiz, Byrd in his era. I'm not saying it's his fault, he just didn't. He also fought Holyfield too late, and especially Tyson, also through no fault of his own. However, I can't name anyone reasonable whom Joe Louis didn't fight in his era, regardless of their skin color or country of origin.

 

There wasn't one but the one who comes closest would be Lee Murray.

Louis's era was deep but it was also balanced. Louis could have beaten a lot more contenders some of whom were black but no one of that group really stood head and shoulders above the rest like Wills did. There wasn't a titular threat it's just a group of people who deserved a chance to fight for the title.

 

Nor me. I'm not saying he ducked anyone. All I am saying is his resume lacks the demographic that have historically dominated the heavyweight division once they were allowed to compete for the title and before football and basketball became better options for the most athletically gifted. I think, whichever way I shake it, that leaves questions that are regularly answered on Lennox's resume.

 

Well 1946-1951(some time retired sure) which post army service anyway and we saw his activity slow down a bit and he took losses to Charles and Marciano and had 2 very tough fights with Walcott.

That's why I am not quite sold on 50+

 

Louis loses his power around defense 40-44 on my timeline and this made him much more beatable for sure. But he could still beat most HW's most times and the losses to Charles and Marciano happen at 59 and 63.

Fighting once every three months is an average sometimes he'd do more and sometimes he'd do less but the period before he lost his power he'd be younger and be more likely to exceed that pace.

 

It doesn't. It shows that the champion fought the best available opposition. And that's the only thing the champion can do in his era and the only thing he should be judged by.

 

Do you mean that the level of boxing in Louis's time was lower because few blacks boxed? Is that it?

 

Iirc, the only top 3 ranked black contenders during Louis's reign were Elmer Ray, JJW and Jimmy Bivins. Louis fought 2 of these 3 (albeit Bivins was post reign, when both were past prime), going 3-0.

Additionally, he beat JHL, who was LHW champion and had a respectable HW record.

The only elite black contender he missed was Ray, who was only ranked towards the very end of Louis's reign. Joe simply didn't have a Harry Wills.

 

I suppose I do, yes. At least in the heavyweight division. The strongest eras in heavyweight history have included a lot of black fighters and black fighters have dominated the heavy division. Look at most top 10-20 lists.

To not really include that demographic in his resume - and, as @Greg Price99 says, through no fault of his own - leaves questions for Joe that Lewis answered on his resume. I'm not saying Joe ducked anyone, not saying Lewis is better. I'm just saying that Joe didn't fight that section of society that history - or, at least, reasonable top 20 lists - indicates produced the best heavyweight fighters.

 

I understand, but black boxers had been able to freely compete in boxing for many years, and Joe was one of them. Langford, Jackson, Jeanette, McVey, Willis, and, of course, Jack Johnson were all there before Louis. If anything changed in the 1930s, it was only for the better. The talent pool at that time simply wasn't as good as those, and the Brown Bomber dominated the rest. If he was able to break through in such unfavorable times, it means he was exceptional.

However, if your theory is true, then since, as you say, basketball and football took away the best black players, that happened around the 1970s and 1980s. Therefore, the Lewis era was also deprived of the best players from the 1950s and 1960s, because the NBA was already breaking records before the 90'.

Frankly, sports history tells me that's not true, and the facts remain the facts. I can name a few top Black boxers from Lewis's era whom he didn't fight, and even a few white ones, but I have trouble naming anyone from Joe Louis's era whom he didn't fight. Gunnar Barlund? Lem Franklin? Elmer Ray? Honestly, I'd rank Wladyslaw, Bowe, Foreman, Holmes, and even Moorer at least as high, or even higher. And let's remember that, at the end of his career, Louis gave his toughest opponent a rematch after a controversial victory.

 

Louis only lost fights when the opponent was really better; which could not be said for Lewis.

 

In Louis's era the best would be black HW's were at LHW and MW. Sugar Ray Robinson was even at WW for awhile. JH Lewis, Moore, Ezzard Charles, Al Gainer, Lloyd Marshall, Jimmy Bivins, Nate Bolden, Billy Fox, Tiger Jack Fox, "the murderers row". If you're wondering where the generational talents were that historically dominate the sport well that's where they were. And most of them simply weren't peaking in that 37-42 window Louis was defending his title if they were around at all.

Lee Murray, Elmer Ray and Lem Franklin were the best larger HW's Louis missed out on. Murray and Ray it really boils down to the war. Franklin was only around for a very short period of time. Blunt fell out of contention following the Buddy Baer win.

There was never a hard color line but of the "color line era" the era of black HW's before Louis was no doubt the worst one. In the previous era's there had been an elite black HW circuit Louis would have otherwise started out on. Godfrey actually won the IBU world title in 1935. But he was 38, in Europe and looking to retire. Gains was in the UK competing on the British circuit. Billy Jones was at LHW. So this has a lot to do with Louis's lack of black opponents. If Louis started in 1895,1905,1915,1925,1945 or 1955 it would have been different but in 1935 black HW's were having a genuine dryspell. Despite a black guy winning a belt that year.

 

Black boxers had been permitted to box professionally for several decades by the time Louis won the title.

Whilst opportunities could still be limited for title shots, relative to their white peers, e.g. the murderers row, the very best black contenders still rose to become notable contenders, e.g. also the murders row.

There was nothing stopping black boxers becoming noted contenders during Louis's reign and, Elmer Ray & Jimmy Bivins (the latter of whom Joe beat during his comeback) right at the end of his reign aside, Louis didn’t miss any elite black contenders during his reign.

We can postulate theories as to why black contenders were more prevalent in some eras than others, but imo, fighters shouldn't be ranked in an historical context based on the colour of skin of their opponents, but rather on the quality of those opponents relative to the era in which they competed. Whilst not definitive, rankings at the time they fought them remains the most objective means of assessing that quality.

 

This is probably another proof of Joe's superiority

 

That's all very fair, Greg. As I keep saying, I don't think Joe ducked anyone or missed anyone out.