If Roy Jones retired after Tarver 1 would he be above Mayweather and Pacquiao

IMO Yes. Absolutely

 

If Rico retired after his first fight he'd be undefeated.

 

...that Roy Jones retired after John Ruiz ...

 

see, an example of 'Achievement based Lists' contradictions.,

a fighters greatness or Top Merit can never change, every fighter has his novice period and end of career whined down years...

so his peak is always going to remain just that, so fighters are just there, and overall because of who & how good they actually are based on all the known factors.

to punish a fighter cause he went on too long or even had a dramatic shift in their later years should not detract from Peak and/or known factors at either end i.e close decision losses, later reversal of said losses, injury or reported sickness, not quite fit, robberies, or Boxing Politricks... how else and more importantly why would you want to subtract from a fighters true reality, if known in full or near enough.

Roy Jones was a marvel and isn't suddenly worse or below x, y and z fighter for latter year performances, 'IF' he's actually a better fighter than said fighter x, y and z, then he's ALWAYS better than them, nothing changes that. and I'm not even a fan of him, but you can't change the facts.

 

Dude was being discussed about being in the company of Sugar Ray Robinson before that loss.

 

Yes, but, had Manny retired right after the Cotto fight, his status would have been elevated as well. Boxers like Manny and Roy who rely on reflexes and speed always suffer more when they fight on too long.

 

I can't unsee what I saw, and that's a fact of human life.

 

No, of course he wouldn't. His best wins would still be Tarver, a poorly prepared Toney, and a green Hopkins.

 

I don't think what happened after that really detracts much. People excuse the losses anyway and whether or not that's right or wrong they don't really change whatever you thought RJJ was in 2003. You'd need to go before Ruiz and Tarver I to get the aura of invincibility back.

The Hopkins and Toney wins insulate a lot.

I struggle to write off champions losing to opponents the same age because they are old but at the same time I'm not not doing that? Tarver started late and was at least the 2nd best LHW of the era. 175er Glen Johnson was finding himself during RJJ's reign and is probably 3rd. If RJJ had never fought them how he compared to them was an open question and those losses really didn't change that.

Manny was going to be rated higher or have the highest ranks because he advanced from 112 to 154 and decimated 2 MW champs. It's easier to claim he's the singular GOAT. While RJJ is a very special fighter it's harder to put him there.

 

I’ll say no because of lack of quality opposition. Enough to be an ATG but lacking a bit outside the top 4 wins.

 

Exactly. It seems in retrospect like a brief moment in time, but consider all the elements in play:

- won version of heavyweight title after campaigning as middleweight
- previous victims Hopkins and Toney were on a roll and on pound for pound lists
- while messy, the Tarver win showed to many he could overcome adversity and stand up to a big puncher. There were enough caveats about his age and dropping down from heavy that he could excuse away a sub-par showing

At that point, Roy was the defining fighter of his era, and yeah probably a lock for top 5 p4p on a lot of lists. There wasn’t quite the depth to his resume, but the dominance was on a different level.

It was unthinkable at the time that within a year he would be poleaxed by Glen Johnson after back to back knockout losses.

 

Looking at what people were saying at the time, I am certain that some people would see it that way.

The sweet spot would have been to retire after the Ruiz fight, and leave people wondering whether he could have toppled Lenox Lewis.