If Frazier had retired after the first Ali fight

I disagree that Ali was only 20 percent of what he once was. That's nonsense.

Ali beat Quarry, Ellis, Bonvena and beat Frazier to a pulp (in a loss) from October 1970 to July 1971 ... only nine months.

Those were the four best fighters in the heavyweight division. Ali stopped three of them and all but ruined Frazier.

There was nothing wrong physically with Ali that night. Ali fought great. He had just turned 29. He was active going against the very best in the division at that time. He was ripped. And he was undefeated. And he easily handled everyone but Frazier.

Frazier was just on a level that night that he never reached before or after.

If Joe had retired after that night, he'd have walked away having delivered the absolute best performance of his life. He gave everything he had and left nothing in the ring that night.

 

I said that because I see clear decline in foot speed. He was rarely clinching up for long periods or fighting on the inside but he was way more static in the comeback fights. That's an entirely different style since the mobility is now gone. It degrades him as a fighter because he is now easier to hit due to being more static and his chin has to come into play now as he is absorbing shots more in the comeback. The handspeed was still there and that seems to be an attribute that fighers keep for longer than others. His reflexes were worse and it wasn't like he didn't get tagged before when he was leaning back from punches, especially the left hook. He was entirely using reflexes for his defence and his entire style really and yes, when you decline like he did and have to totally use a new style which is much more ineffective for your attributes so you essentially have to become a different fighter, then I see that as a significant downgrade in the quality of the fighter. Ali was a truly awesome fighter before that ban. A really exceptional fighter operating at the highest level of speed, coordination and reflexes. It's kind of like he was Usain Bolt in that sense of being at the peak of physical ability. As a human being can be coordinated with hands and feet and using their reflexes as well as they can be used and as fast as a human being of that size can possibly move, then you can really never underestimate what was lost when he lost a step during that ban.

Personally, I stand by the 20%.

 

Then what percentage was he when he fought Norton in 76 or Shavers in 77?

Because he wasn't nearly as good then as he was when he fought Frazier in 71.

Was he 2 percent of himself?

Ali at 20 percent doesn't stop Quarry, Bonavena and Ellis. Hell, Ellis beat Ali in the amateurs. Ellis wasn't an amateur in 1971.

Ali just turned 29 and just beat two of the three top contenders before he fought Frazier. (And handily beat another one - Ellis - a couple months later.) He was fine. Not 20 PERCENT.

 

He might be higher up on the all time list. Granted he’d only have a record of 27-0 but with practically no padding

 

Quarry, Ellis and Bonavena couldn't handle the handspeed but even they connected at times. If we are honest about Quarry he was limited and always cut up. I give Bonavena credit for toughness and he was awkward for most people. Young Ali doesn't have any problems with him though. Ellis was just a poor mans Ali. The Norton fights were probably all Norton wins. He went life and death with Norton. Shavers landed a couple too and Ali was holding on and trying to rope a dope with Earnie Shaver. Can you see an Earnie Shaver or Kenny Norton landing a glove on Ali from the Liston fights. They might get lucky with a punch here or there but the difference in footspeed and handspeed and coordination would make it a clear 12-0 fight and probably getting stoppages in the second half. If you can't see that then that is the problem. Our problem is that you are underrating pre ban Ali which most do. The guy was operating at the highest level of human ability of speed/reflexes and coordination that it's possible for a man of that size to put all together. It's a guy at the very top of his athletic ability. Take all of that away, you take away an elite fighter and have a totally different style of fighter. As far as I'm concerned he is way out of his prime in that comeback. I don't care what the results were. I can see a completely different level of speed/reflexes/coordination pre ban vs after ban.

 

Well, that's not how the people saw it at the time. Even Nat Fleisher, "Mr. Championships Are To Be Won And Lost In The Ring", stopped recognizing Ali after he retired in February 1970. And that's how the lineal championship works too. He retired, abdicated and even wanted to hand his belt to the winner of Frazier vs Ellis, but NYSAC didn't let him.

 

Twenty percent means 1/5. Do you really believe Ali was one fifth of the fighter he was before the ban? I agree that he was a lesser fighter but I question whether he had even declined by as much as 10%.

 

People always connected at times against Ali. This fantasy that he was untouchable in the 60s is just that.

Ali had been in close fights before. Ali had been dropped before. He went to the ropes against Frazier because Frazier put him there. Just like Frazier put everyone there to that point.

And Ali was bouncing shots off Joe's head all night long. It took an all-time great performance by Frazier to even survive. And he not only did it, he won.

Ali fought one of the greatest fights of his career that night. Frazier was just a little better. And the beating Joe took to win basically ended his prime.

Ali even came back three months later and easily beat up the former champ Ellis, while Joe was still visiting the hospital to care for his injuries.