Pat Killen > John L Sullivan

Matter of time till Janitor starts ... good luck.

 

That Killen ducked Sullivan.

 

I have almost no knowledge of the ancient times so I'm looking forward to this thread.

 

that’s a polite way of scratching the surface. Putting aside the fact that he was a drop dead drunk and near death multiple times since 1884, yes that early, it can be said Sullivan, who I like but a realistic about , may not have fought three or four men after 86 who would have beaten him. Like Dempsey thirty five years later , Sullivan may had exceptional natural talent but he never came close to maximizing it.

 

I agree with all of this.

Sullivans handful of solid opponents all went damm near winless in big fights after Sullivan beat them. Including Cardiff who Sullivan didn't beat and who was closer to the bottom of the group. All the evidence is pointing to Jackson, Slavin, McAuliffe and Killen being of superior quality. And those are the easy ones.

Maybe Sullivan was the best HW in 1885 his claim was at least as strong as Billy Wilsons or anyone elses. The title should have changed hands in the Cardiff fight and we should recognize the Cardiff lineage. By 1888 or 1889 Sullivans claim was a joke. Even if Sullivan was at the same level as Godfrey, Kilrain, Billy Wilson and Lannon he did nothing to prove that. Except the bare knuckle fight with Kilrain. In said fight the dangerous HW known for KO'ing debutants in 1 round proves utterly uncapable of taking Kilrain out for like 30 something modern rounds or whatever the conversion is.

Killen's story and death is absurd. Was beating up a routine opponent and all of a sudden the guy tries to eat him and Killen never recovered. Dying about a year after.

 

Sullivan's critics have one flaw ion common.

They don't measure him against the threats while he was active, they measure him against the emerging threats of the next era, when he was either formally retired/drinking himself into oblivion/in court or nearly dead.

 

Burke 170lbs
McCaffrey167lbs
Greenfield 150lbs

 

Killen is the one that backed out of their scheduled match before the Cardiff-Sullivan fight. According to Cyber Boxing Zone, in October 1886 Killen also said that he would fight all comers except for John L. Sullivan. Not sure what their source is for that, but Killen definitely pulled out of a match with Sullivan in either December 1886 or January 1887. Adam Pollack covers this in page 229 of his 2016 Sullivan book:

“Sullivan said that it looked as if the hard-punching Pat Killen was backing out of their scheduled match.”

“Sheedy said that Pat Killen had shown the white feather. He had signed articles for a 4-round meeting, but was afraid, and therefore was attempting to re-negotiate the contract.”

Also, who did Sullivan duck before his arm injury in the Cardiff fight? Mitchell and Burke held their own against big men; Burke held Slavin even over 8 rounds who was a top 5 contender for at least the next 5 or 6 years. Mitchell appeared to have gotten the better of Kilrain in their match and even KO’d 210+ pounder in Herbert Slade. They were the best fighters in America and Britain in the early to mid 1880s.

 

You’re acting like Godfrey was all that more proven in 1883 compared to 1881 because he beat Hadley who was nothing special himself even compared to Sullivan’s opponents. He still got slapped around by a young Kilrain that same year who himself got slapped around in a gloved exhibition against Sullivan the following year.

Not a single fighter, trainer, journalist thought that Godfrey was even close to Sullivan’s level. This isn’t Peter Jackson we’re talking about, this is a guy who was openly seen as a B-tier fighter. Why would Godfrey even be outboxing Sullivan before getting stopped? What about his career and perceived level from those at the time suggests he’d even be more skilled at all?