Archie Moore has a better top 12 HW wins in their era than Marciano does.

I never said Williams was rated.but he was a good win.
Lastarza beat Bucceroni , and 5 months earlier he lost to him.
Dempsey was the lone official for that fight,a man who promoted a White Hope tourney
The FOTC had judges and how many even rounds did they score? How about NONE!
I don't really appreciate your gratuitous sarcasm, so before I'm tempted to reply in kind, I'm going to leave our conversation there.

 

A w

A wise move.

 

"The Ring scored the fight a draw. Ten out of eleven papers scored it for Charles."

Information I put in my post. What I disputed was your "vast majority" claim. Off Fleischer the crowd thought Layne won and was ecstatic at the decision. I made the point that they were Layne's fans.

"There is no convincing evidence that played a part in the decision"

I think you mean the press opinion. I posted that I had no idea in this case, but such things were not unknown and have been admitted by reporters such as Roger Kahn. My second point is it is difficult to evaluate the value of newspaper opinions from these small town papers against the opinions of Fleischer, Dempsey, and Hurley, none of whom had Charles winning.

"The Ring"

Here are their ratings given on August 18, 1952, which shows how they viewed the fight and the outcome:

Champion-----Jersey Joe Walcott
1-----Rocky Marciano
2-----Rex Layne
3-----Ezzard Charles
4-----Roland LaStarza
5-----Coley Wallace

In the January, 1953 issue of The Ring, Al Buck wrote in a profile of Layne that those who saw his fight with Charles were impressed, and that "Layne has become a formidable fighter."

Racism?

Layne was a white fighter fighting in front of a white audience against a black opponent. I guess it for each of us to decide if that was the decisive factor for Dempsey, Fleischer, Hurley, or anyone else in judging who won.

In fairness, that might be true also of many of the contemporary "weak era" arguments. Too many black fighters at the top. Not like the good old days before the fall of the color line when the champs were whites fighting other whites.

"and that is not convincing evidence"

The Ring did not argue Charles won. And no, I don't think the press judgment, if the polling is accurate, is definitive at all.

 

"I never said Williams was rated but he was a good win."

Why? He had not been rated in the 1950's. He come into the Valdes fight after three straight losses. Why is he a good win, but Layne is not? Or Savold? Or Bucceroni? or Jones? I don't dispute Williams perhaps being a "good win" but I can't see that he is but everyone who lost to LaStarza or old Louis is never a good win.

And my point was all these Valdes wins, including Williams, came after Marciano and LaStarza signed to a title fight. It did not, and could not, influence that fight. Valdes can be compared to LaStarza as a contender only in the sense he can be compared to Moran or Firpo. You can think him better, but this is only abstract opinion. There is no historical impact.

"LaStarza beat Bucceroni, and 5 months earlier he lost to him."

And? Bucceroni was highly rated in both the light-heavy and heavy divisions. He rose to #1 contender in the heavyweight division. I frankly don't see this somehow eliminating LaStarza who impressively reversed this defeat, while Valdes never reversed any of his four losses in late 1952 and 1953.

"Dempsey was the lone official for that fight, a man who promoted a White Hope tourney"

This is true.

"FOTC"

As Fleischer, who did not think the decision unfair, pointed out, Dempsey left himself wide open for criticism by scoring so many rounds even. Fleischer thought that a valid criticism. And it is a handy stick to use to beat Dempsey. I doubt, though, that if Dempsey had scored the fight 6-4 or 5-4-1 for Layne, it would matter much to the critics claiming Charles won.

"I don't really appreciate your gratuitous sarcasm"

?????????

The thread you quoted was totally factual.

 

To get back to the thread Archie had one of the best resumes ever at HW and it’s hard for people to grasp. They only want to view him in a LHW lens. But I do think Marciano beats it.
Louis
Layne
Walcott x2
Charles x2
LaStarza x2
Moore himself
Savold
Cockell
Matthews
That’s the top 12
Archie’s would be
Nino x2
Baker
Curtis Sheppard
Clarence Henry
Jimmy Bivins x4
Slade
Lavorante
Now if you count Satterfield and Harold Johnson (fights were at LHW) the resume improves but I still think the best wins belong to Marciano

 

Yes,I agree.

 

I think a fair take is Moore had the deeper resume,

and Marciano had the better one due to beating the better fighters.

 

Can you provide a source for this Suze ,because Louis' own biography states he gave 2 exhibitions with Valdes.On Jan 28th 1949 inTampa and it went the 4 rds proscribed limit,and again on Feb7th1950 in St Petersburg,which again went the 4 rounds distance.

 

Nino Valdes TKO's Tommy 'Hurricane' Jackson in the 2nd round at Madison Square Garden on July 14, 1954.
The AP would report:
"Nino Valdes, an 11-5 underdog, overwhelmed the listless Hurricane Jackson, who showed only one brief flash of the fiery newcomer who beat Rex Layne, Clarence Henry and Dan Bucceroni in his exciting rise from prelim boy to No. 5 contender. In the 1st round, the Cuban thumped at Jackson's body with both hands. Shifting to the head when Jackson came out for the 2nd, Valdes drove his man half through the ropes with a solid right. Although the timekeeper counted to four, referee Al Berl ruled no knockdown. Another right sent Jackson to the floor and he was up at '2'. Another flurry drove Jackson to his knees for the count of '1'. The 3rd knockdown that ended the bout was disputed by many in the crowd as a push, but referee Berl ruled knockdown and the fight was over at 2:35 of the 2nd."

 

This content is protected

"He's a thief I tell you" - Jake Mintz

 

I don't know if Suzie is likely to return, so I will give what info I know

The Cyber Boxing Zone lists Louis' exhibitions, and lists

March 14, 1950-----Houston Texas-----Nino Valdes, KO 1

-------------------------

I also found a discussion on this forum back on June 3, 2006. Janitor posted on this exhibition knockout. And there was this reply,

"To whom it may concern, I asserted on the Louis v Valentino thread that Louis did not KO Nino Valdes in their two exhibition matches. I was adamant about this, using Joe Louis' autobiography, "My Life," for my point of reference. Turns out they had three exhibitions and Louis Ko'd Valdes in one. So I was wrong."

This was posted by a poster using the name McVey. It might not be the same McVey as the current poster.

--------------------------

My one comment is an autobiography by any old man, and especially an old boxer who took a lot of head punches, is probably going to be shaky on facts, even though I would not question at all the sincerity of the man writing what he remembers of his life.

 

No question Charles' corner felt they were robbed. Not at all unusual for corners in close fights.

 

Louis was in Lubbock Texas on the 18th of March,we know that because he gave a 4 round exhibition with Kid Carr.
That poster was me,but I've no recollection of making it.It seems not only old boxers,but also old men who didn't take that many punches in their bottom feeding career can be shaky on facts!
Thanks for putting that to bed!

 

I was asked why I don't accept the press opinion, if the poll is accurate, as definitive?

Because there are other fights in which the press was strongly against the decision, or even unanimously against it, but when I watch the film, I find the decision fair and agree with it.

Kid Gavilan--Billy Graham, 1951

Joey Maxim--Floyd Patterson, 1954

Willie Pastrano--Harold Johnson, 1963

The press thought Graham, Patterson, and Johnson won. There was a lot of controversy. Talk of robbery. Even I think a riot after the Gavilan fight. But I agreed with all three decisions when I watched the films.

So I don't see anyone going to the wall for a robbery on the basis of the reported press opinion in a fight for which a film is not available.

 

Louis boxed four exhibitions with Valdes (that I know of) - one in 1949 and three more in 1950. It was the last one that produced the knockout. People say it was in the first round, but he was actually saved by the bell and knocked out in the second.

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