Sonny Liston Vs. all previous HW champions; Mount Rushmore (H2H)

Prior to prime Ali?
no one in my opinion, with Joe Louis
having the best chance.
However Louis was knocked down and
ko'ed by smaller, less skilled, and much
less powerful men than prime Liston.
Louis's chances would be 40/60 at best.

 

I cannot see Joe Louis standing in front of Sonny Liston for too long. If Liston wins the battle of jabs he just might ICE Louis

 

Stunning isn't it

 

I'd make Louis a mild fave and take Liston over the rest. There's a couple of potential banana skins in there.

 

By that logic, Liston should have been knocked out by plenty of the fighters he completely dominated. That bout was an obvious anomaly in both men's careers and, to put it mildly, highly questionable. Even if you accept the knockdown as legitimate, Liston's ability to break his fall and roll around afterward hardly resembles someone who was genuinely rendered unconscious.

Louis, meanwhile, was dropped in the first round by an arthritic former champion with damaged hands who hadn't fought in two years. Over the course of his career, he was also knocked down 11 times.

I don't think Liston even hits the canvas against opponents like Galento or Buddy Baer. In fact, I'd be much more confident that Liston stays on his feet against that level of opposition than I would be in Louis absorbing the same blows Liston did against Cleveland Williams (whether he would have to or not is a separate matter entirely) without being dropped.

 

How does the logic that he got stopped in one by Ali mean he should've been stopped by other opponents?

 

Didn't Liston show heart fighting with a broken nose against Williams , and with a broken jaw against Marshall? We all have our opinions.I think Sonny bombs Marciano out inside 5 rounds,and I mean out for the count.

 

I don't think he was ko'd,I think he was told to dive and he did it.
His sparring partner Foneda Cox told Sonny he was going to have a big bet on him and Sonny said," don't do that,anything can happen when two big guys fight".After the fight Cox asked Sonny why he didn't tip him off he was going to dive? Cox said Liston replied ,"with your big mouth ,we'd both be wearing cement boots."

 

Me too.Liston would have crushed Marciano.

 

That's the implication of your argument. If getting stopped in one by a "light puncher" defines Liston's chin, then surely big punchers like Williams, DeJohn, and Valdes should've obliterated him. They didn't, which is why using that one fight as the benchmark for his durability makes no sense.

it's not reasonable to treat one bizarre, highly disputed, almost certainly not on the level, fight as representative of Liston's durability.

 

Just the Brown Bomber for mine but I still wouldn’t be betting my house on Joe. It’s one of my preferred fantasy fights.

 

Lewiston Maine is the perfect example of the many times Liston was presumed guilty before/without being proven as such.

For the Ali rematch, he quit, he took a pre med dive, he can’t take a punch etc. All such notions are mutually exclusive and cannot co-exist but many take the indiscriminate shot gun approach in order to take Sonny down.

Never mind that Ali, Walcott and Fleischer contributed most to the chaos. They literally beached the rules while Liston broke no rules.

However long Liston was down for, he didn’t get any count whatsoever and Ali was buzzing by him for near all of that time anyway. Again, an apparently trivial, innocuous detail.

It just so happens that Ali repeated this same tactic after he first downed Bonavena, refusing to retreat to a neutral corner and even going so far as to slap down the ref’s restraining arm.

What other ring controversies was Sonny involved in within the confines of the ring besides those relating to his two fights with the not so uncontroversial Ali?

The blinding by way of lineament or monsel solution was accidental - even Dundee attested to same and the accidental transference to Ali’s eyes can be reasonably and logically deduced.

Machen clearly lied when he came out of the wood work 4 years after the fact of his fight with Liston to allege that he was “also” the victim of deliberate blinding tactics.

You will hear others also state that Williams also claimed that he was blinded against Liston.

Source? Nigel Collins Boxing Babylon - a cursory, here say ref. to Williams allegedly complaining about same in his dressing room post fight.

Any evidence otherwise re Williams’ alleged claim - even at least a direct, proven quote from Cleve himself?

If true, you would think so but no such evidence has ever been produced.

 

He was a watershed heavyweight, the emergence of the modern super athlete donned with boxing gloves. I don't even favor Louis over him. Unfortunately, circumstances held him back until late in his prime and Clay/Ali emerged as the perfect foil for his style and attributes. Styles do make fights at times. And it did turn out that, when the dust settled, Ali was the heavyweight GOAT.

 

I picked Louis and, a sleeper, Johnson who I think had the defensive chops to badly frustrate Sonny and cutesy his way to a decision. But I’m less confident about that and I absolutely think on a given day absolutely prime Liston could beat the Bomber.

Sonny Liston would leave Marciano convulsing on the canvas … Rocky would keep trying to get up and fight until his brain was completely senseless and his muscles were unable to respond, which would magnify the level of the beating … and it would not take long. I can’t think of a worse matchup for Rocky.

 

Louis Charles and Marciano have the best chance. Charles used to whoop him in sparring…that’s a mental edge. Oddly I think of the bunch Charles would be a massive favorite for me. The other two are coin flips