Is Usyk the best European (descent) heavyweight of all time ?

Not sure who Mariano is but it's a tough call as although certainly great Usyk doesn't have the depth overall.

 

Yes, Wlad would be #1 but Jeffries has no business in that tier. Usyk beat much higher quality, actual heavies. And Tunney and Dempsey also do not share a tier, certainly as heavies, as Dempsey's resume in that division drastically outshines Gene's.

 

After Louis and Ali, it gets very difficult to rank these guys, and you can compare different strengths and weaknesses, and make different arguments.

Usyk has a thin heavyweight resume, like most guys coming up from a different division, but he has a very unique achievement to hang his hat on in that he beat the #2, #3, and #4 heavyweights of his day twice each while remaining undefeated, thus showing that he was head and shoulders above the others in his era. This is a feat that not only did not many white heavies achieve outside of maybe Marciano, but very few black fighters came close to.

Think on it...

WladKlit- Never fought his brother. Early losses meant that he was not even in position to fight the best guys that overlapped him.

Vitklit- never beat anybody. What are we even talking about him, for?

Lewis- through no fault of his own, couldn't get Bowe into the ring, and got robbed against Holy the first time, but he did lose to inferior fighters along the way,

Holyfield- got Tyson, but split with Bowe and soundly beaten by Lewis twice (despite what the cards said).

Tyson- didn't even win the big matches, and should have at least beat Holy.

Holmes- ARGUABLY beat the best three in Norton, Witherspoon, and Berbick, but never gave rematches for close and debatable fights. Who knows what Witherspoon might have done coming in with more than 16 fights experience. Also left half the division on the table, so it's hard to say who were the top three.

Ali- split with Frazier before getting the two of three. Never rematched Foreman.

Foreman- Came close by beating Frazier twice and Norton, but lost to Ali.

Frazier- Four losses to Forman and Ali.

Liston- Did pretty good here with two against Patterson, but only beat Machen and Foley once, and the Machen fight was a tough one in which Liston had to foul a lot. Not his fault that he didn't get Johansson in the ring. With the two fights against Williams, he is one of the better ones in taking all comers. Of course lost to Ali.

Patterson- Lost twice to Liston, didn't fight Foley, and only fought Machen once late career as an after thought. Maybe Cus D'Mato's fault but he was one of the duckinest of all times.

Marciano- ARGUABLY achieved this with Charles, Walcott, and La Starza, although some might say Nino Valdez would have been top three ( I do not).

Louis- split with Max Schmeling.

Tunney- didn't fight black fighters.

Dempsey- didn't fight black fighters.

Jack Johnson- Did a good job in there as he beat Langford, Jeanette and McVey all twice each. It is certainly not his fault he only got Jefferies in there once. However, he had losses too.

Jefferies/Fitzsimmons/Corbett/Sullivan- didn't defend titles against black fighters.

And on and on. Usyk had his division on lock like no one before him. Some are saying it is a weak division...please. Fury, Dubois or Joshua would have steamrolled some of these eras. There have a been a lot weaker.

 

Tyson had a much deeper heavyweight resume than Usyk prior to his first loss

He could have retired undefeated with a deeper heavyweight resume and comparable overall resume

 

That's not correct mate..

Fitz fought Starlight Rollins, Harris Martin & Jack Johnson.

Jeffries fought Peter Jackson, Bob Armstrong, Hank Griffin & Jack Johnson.

 

And Corbett fought Jackson.

Fair play. Let's modify. They didn't defend titles against black fighters.

Fixed.

I will change it retroactively. Thanks.

 

I have hard time putting Usyk over Wladimir. Usyk’s best wins are competitive bouts against Fury and Joshua.
Wladimir fought both guys at an extremely advanced age for a pro fighter. Both in age he was old at 39 and 41, and volume of professional bouts at world level. Wlad was close to 70 total bouts.
The fact Klitschko fought both guys close, better versions of Fury and Joshua too, than Usyk faced, and in addition has 23 title defenses and 18 consecutive outweighs Usyk’s brief but stellar run in the division.

 

And yet I could not see Usyk losing to Brewster and Purity.

 

And I could not see Wlad losing to Joe Frazier but I still put Ali over Wlad.

 

Excellent post, represents my own thoughts perfectly.

 

In a sense, fair play, but in another////you are comparing Joe Frazier to Ross Purity?

 

In a sense but you can insert Henry Cooper if you like (yes, I think there were shenanigans there) or Joe Choynski if that helps.

 

Yes.

Vitali's wins don't compare and he lost twice. Wlad had five losses, two to men Usyk beat twice each, Wlad's top wins were also inferior, and often A-side dependent. Fury was beaten twice by Usyk.

So it has to be Usyk, who is undefeated with no draws, undisputed at CW and HW, who will possibly finish with 7 wins over HoF HW's.