The most unjust victory ever given to Ali

The game's gone - agree to not overly detract the thread but political intervention into the colour of a card is scandalous; much more problematic than reffing standards.

Back to Ali - tbh, I barely watch anything of his after Manilla - relying on his celebrity and the gradual loss of his training intensity and succumbing to his fork saw some more than lacklustre performances. Still, taking on Shavers at that stage - question his ethic, can't question his heart.

The standout answer is the third Norton.

 

Yes, that sole instance does not have to mean it was done on Ali's behalf, but he did also get away with too much holding at times. On balance, I don't think it's a big stretch to think his popularity might have had something to do with it.

 

Fighters are rarely penalized for holding. They are often admonished but by rule it has to be excessive (which is in the eye of the beholder … the ref) to be penalized.

Anyone who likes overly officious referees should be watching amateur boxing. If you want to see refs step in and break up the action at merest hint of an infraction (which some posters act like they do), amateur is where it’s at.

If I were a pro ref, I would only want to break when both arms are tied up — if a guy has a free hand and isn’t using it, that’s on him … not the ref.

And if you know what you’re watching, check out how often the guy ‘being held’ thrusts his arms under the arms of the guy who is ‘holding.’ If you’re fighting me, you’re not breaking the rules by having your elbows down by your body — you shouldn’t have to throw them up in the sky toward the ceiling. If I thrust my arms out, it is ME initiating the clinch. (Povetkin almost never threw to the body when he got into position vs Wlad, he pushed his arms forward under Wlad’s armpits. It got to the point where Wlad actually did raise his arms to show it’s not him). Look at it through that lens and see how many times it is actually Povetkin who initiated the clinch and ask why he wasn’t trying to punch when he got in range. Mike Tyson was bad about it too.

 

You never felt Ali's holding got excessive and that he was given quite a bit of leeway?

 

It's moreso the grappling element of Ali pulling down on necks than just holding.

Truth be told, Lewis pulled people into uppercuts, Big George pushed people onto the end of his haymakers, Floyd rubbed his forearm across the face, blinding your vision and framing you into his punches, Iron Mike tried to break arms in the clinch, Evan Fields did the Rihanna to some opponents, Golota punched a million potential senators, businessmen and presidents into oblivion - fighters do foul or push the boundaries of rules all the time.

I expect top fighters to do what they have to do to win - let the ref enforce and give yourself the best chance of winning every inch of the mental and physical battle that you can.

 

I am sorry, but I don't see your logic there.

If you agree to a boxing match with me in good faith, and I take a dive, then you probably deserve the win more than I do.

 

Name a single other boxing match where the fighter who scores the knockdown disrupts the ref's count, the downed fighter beats the ref's count, and the ref decides to waive the fight off because of a timekeeper count which the downed fighter had no access to. I can think of three different outcomes that would've made more sense than a stoppage loss for Liston.

 

I cannot, offhand, think of an instance where Ali merited a point deduction for it.

To be fair, you’d have to look at the entire career set of all of his opponents and count infractions they got away with to make a fair comparison. It’s easy to generalize ‘Ali got away with this and that’ … but how many egregious instances over how many fights allowone to make that generalization?

By contrast, we have multiple instances of Mike Tyson biting, trying to break arms, etc. He got like six or seven stern warnings for violations vs Ruddock alone and no points — hitting after the bell, low blows, head butts, etc.

It’s like saying ‘Ali always got an unfair advantage with the judges’ … but it boils down to maybe two close fights. (And Jimmy Young ****ed himself by trying to crawl out of the ring every time Ali got close — something no sane judge is going to reward.)

 

Well Liston clearly didn't win.

Clearly didn't want to.

If he did, then he was simply beaten.

 

Saying "clearly" in absence of making an argument does not a strong argument make.

 

I don’t consider either of Ali’s victories over Sonny to be unjust, which is the context we are discussing.

I have watched both fights numerous times and I cannot see any miscarriage of justice. I can see Sonny being completely outclassed.

Both were stoppage wins. The finish of the second fight is wonky, but I don’t see it as an injustice — he got knocked down and controlled (presuming he was in control of his faculties) how quickly he got up.

The ‘Ali was hovering over him and he was afraid to get up lest he get hit while vulnerable’ doesn’t hold water. Ali was way across the ring when Sonny got to one knee and rolled back down. Ali was doing a victory lap when he was getting up the second time.

And if Ali had hit him when he was down, Liston may have won the title on a foul.

The timekeeper thing makes it look, as I said, wonky, but it’s not an unjust win as if Liston was kicking Ali’s ass and they stopped it and raised Muhammad’s hand.

If you think Liston losing was a travesty of justice, I’m all ears.

 

Ali vs Shavers. Shavers clearly beat him.

 

He didn’t receive a fair count. It could’ve been called an NC, a DQ of Ali, or Walcott could’ve simply shrugged and let the fight continue. What actually transpired would’ve been akin to Joe Cortez panicking and DQing Judah after Roger stormed the ring in the Mayweather fight. Thankfully, Cortez was a much more competent ref than Walcott.

This is the only supposed dive in history where the guy gets up and keeps fighting.

 

He was down long enough to take a nap. His rollover from the knee was Three Stooges stuff.

He doesn’t get the ‘unfair count’ excuse when he did everything but make up his bed and ask Walcott to tuck him in — he had a chance to get up much more quickly and either couldn’t or chose not to (so he could do his tootsie roll).

There was absolutely nothing in the rulebook which might call for either a no contest nor a DQ of Ali. Cite what rules you would use to come up with either verdict — Ali did go to the corner when admonished to do so; it’s not a DQ to fail to get there immediately (did Dempsey get DQ’d vs Tunney, lol?). And there’s no basis for a no contest.

What fight has ever ended in NC or DQ due to ref/timekeeper error like this? Answer: none.

Liston controlled his own fate. He was either in LaLa land from the punch (KO) or he chose not to (dive, but getting up because he thought he had to after Ali slowed the count and he realized how stupid his Buster Keaton act made him look).

Either way, it’s an L.

If Sonny got screwed, Sonny screwed Sonny.

 

Name another fight that was stopped because the ref couldn't keep a count before you get on your high horse.