Sonny Liston Vs. all previous HW champions; Mount Rushmore (H2H)

Every fighter should be judged by their best fight not their worst. Or at least the stretches of their peak. That was not Listons peak.

 

Well, in an imaginary world where they're facing off in their prime, Charles isn't going to have sparred with a green amateur Liston in 1953. In any case, while he may (as you'd expect) have had the better of their sessions, he saw enough of what Liston could do to make it doubtful how much of a mental edge he'd have taken from it. Years later he recalled:

I was training for a fight with Wes Bascom in St. Louis when Liston was brought around as one of my sparring partners. He was big and fast then and impressed me at the time as a comer. I could tell, too, by the way fighters and managers talked around St. Louis that he had a good future. They had a lot of respect for him.

And in a different interview:

I was working out for Wes Bascom. This big boy Liston was a good sparring partner. I think he was a lot bigger than he is now. He took a punch good and he hit good, and I remember, after the first workout, I said to myself I didn't want him to hit me too good.

https://ibb.co/R4QpB76G
https://ibb.co/GQBMM8gd

 

Liston beats everyone that came before him bar Joe Louis which is 50/50. The talent pool jumped in the 60s bigtime and then another increase took place in the 80s and early 90s

I think the current talent pipeline is also about to get an increase in strength with Moses Itauma, David Surov and a bunch of other guys

 

Liston was a revolution in the game. I think Joe Louis could do it but even then that is a fight I may favor Liston in. Liston's level of power, the strength of his jab and his overall attitude toward the game combined with his physical dimensions and brutal in-ring approach was unique. I don't know who else makes it to the final bell from this list.

 

Agree with every thing you said up till the last sentence,don`t rate the current batch of heavyweights at all

 

You're spot on about how this fight is constantly used by people with an agenda against Liston. What's especially amusing is how some claim he quit because he lacked heart, while also insisting he was legitimately knocked out because he had no chin. Those arguments are mutually exclusive, yet they're often thrown together as if they somehow strengthen the case.

You're also correct regarding the lack of evidence to substantiate Machen's claim, and claims attributed to Williams. Williams never made the claim himself, and Liston and Williams were known friends even after their bout. Theirs's a famous picture of Liston visiting Williams in the hospital after their fight. Their friendship would've never survived that. Machen's claims have even less credibility. He said absolutely nothing about being blinded before the ali fight. And in a highly publicized argument with Liston, he again failed to mention anything about being blinded.

https://www.newspapers.com/article/press-of-atlantic-city/198106289/

 

IMO Sonny beats them all. But If I were to pick one, I'd pick Dempsey. He might have a chance if he goes all out with a fast attack.

 

He beats Louis with ease.

 

Sonny KO's all of them.

 

The next generation of heavyweights haven't even won titles yet

 

Wow. Awesome newspaper article. Never read that before. Thanks.

Imagine having that exchange on film, both guys verbally firing? Liston might not have been much for words in general but his counters to Machen’s barbs were on point.

Another piece of evidence is that, prior to and just after his fight against Liston in 1960, Machen had plenty of negative things to say about Sonny - suffice to say, he wasn’t holding back in any way…BUT, after the fight, there was no mention of Liston attempting to blind him - and again, there is no evidence on the fight film to suggest that it happened.

If the notably belated allegations were true, Machen would’ve surely claimed them as at the time.

Liston is a prime example of a guy who, no matter how much he rehab’d himself, there were still those who wanted to hold him to account for his early misdemeanours.

Cus D’Amata was one of those people but of course his ulterior motive was to find any reason to unjustly preclude Liston from getting a match with Patterson.

 

I dont see them winning, but Louis and Charles have the best chances IMO. Louis would be the smartest fighter Liston ever faced and probably the harder puncher aside from maybe Williams. Charles was a great counterpuncher, and very mobile, which was something Liston was most vulnerable to

 

Sorry I meant to respond yesterday but I accidentally deleted my post and said **** it.

"Imagine having that exchange on film, both guys verbally firing? Liston might not have been much for words in general but his counters to Machen’s barbs were on point." I agree. Liston got the better of that imo. Couldn't stop laughing at this part.
"Another thing," Liston yelled. "You have to quit fighting all bums. Nobody ever heard of the guys you been whipping." This was a reference to the string of unknown opponents Machen faced after returning from institutionalization. In hindsight, it appears to have been an attempt to preserve the illusion that he was still the Machen of old while protecting his No. 2 contender ranking.

What made it even funnier was that the hostility seemed to be cooling off, only for Liston to throw gasoline on the fire and send it right back to 10.

I found Machen's quips unconvincing tbh " you weren't so good in our fight at Seattle." Very odd comeback considering Liston beat him decisively. If Liston supposedly "wasn't so good," what does that say about the man who still lost to him?

And yes, you're right—if Liston had actually blinded Machen, he would've said so long before he eventually did. The same goes for Folley, Williams, and Valdes. If they'd genuinely been blinded as people attributed to them—despite them never making those claims themselves.