The most unjust victory ever given to Ali

This is my opinion in every instance

 

For me, the answer is simple: He panicked. You can be the smartest person in the world, but if you're panicking, you might as well have the decision making skills of a six year old.

 

If he didn’t stop him. He hits him like he hit Brian London and Cleveland Williams and Zora Folley and Kenny isn’t staying vertical.

 

Quite possibly, that would not overly surprise. Ali had some decent snap on his punches when he wanted it, pre exile.

 

Hi JT.
Interesting you say that, I always felt the bigger, stronger, heavier Ali, of the post exile was the harder puncher, I feel it was more the speed and accumulation of his punches was the reason he took out the likes of London, and Williams.
Mike.

 

Ali received more favoritism than any fighter in history.

I thought Shavers beat the hell out of him. The open scoring persuaded all the casuals that Ali was winning, even though Earnie blocked just about everything except in the final round, which I still think he won.

The Norton fight is infamous. I gave Ken ten rounds.

I’ve never understood the Ali worship. I pretty much despise him.

 

Norton III is the worst ...watch Ali's body language after the bell. He knew he'd lost. The Young fight is on the radar but not that bad.

 

Ali still accomplished what he set out to do, despite getting whooped up until that point by the one guy that hit harder than Foreman

People despise him because there are things that they set out to do that they have not accomplished, because they think they lack something for whatever reason

They hold themselves back by their own devices, they aren't willing to sacrifice, they aren't willing to go above and beyond and take the pain, mentally and physically, no skin in the game when the reality of life is that there ends up being skin in the game whether the person wants there to be or not

There is a reason Ali is heralded as being bigger than boxing

 

Hi Mike.

Millions would agree with you. Personally i find the strength and size factor gets overstated. Ali's last three fights pre-exile were at 212 3/4, 212 1/4 and 211 1/2. His three fights immediately post exile were at 213 1/2, 212 and 215 for Joe. It was after this that his weights really upped....in places.

After being beaten by Norton at 221 pounds he trained hard and came in at 212 pounds in the rematch. This is a whopping 6 1/2 years after he was exiled. In determined shape he weighed what he did at his 60's peak. The next year he was 212 against Frazier in the rematch and 216 1/2 against Foreman 9 months later. Eddie Futch says that was the last fight he was ever in truly good shape for.

So what i am saying is that the extra weight was mostly artificial. Also, when heavyweights reach certain ages (around the time of decline, often) they need to let themselves out a few pounds as the effort getitng down to their young peak weights can do more harm than good. After Holmes struggle with Witherspoon, Futch told him not to aim for his preferred 212 1/2 anymore.

I mean, Ali was never a "puncher" as such. He did shock Liston with the clout he carried in fight 1 and his punching in the 60's was very fast and crisp when he let them go. I thought the way he put Folley away was pretty impressive.

It's not a hill I'd die on or debate back and forth tho. His extra youth and vigor would also add some extra pressure on. His punches would be a little snappier and he'd have more stamina and workrate to pressure Kenny with. The odds are still a distance fight tho.

 

This was a very long way to say that you think the roll over looked legit. I guess that's what you say?

For me, there's just no way I can persuade my eyes that it isn't fake as hell whenever I watch it.

Also, Ali should have gone to neutral corner and not clown around like that, and Walcott shouldn't have waved it off without a proper count.

These three opionins are by no means mutually exclusive.

 

Ali: lands 10 girlfriend - level punches on Shavers' gloves.
Scorekeepers: Oooh ooohhh ohhh *orgasm* Ali is lighting him up

Shavers: lands an overhand cannonball snapping Ali's head and making him googly eyed
Scorekeepers: That still only counts as one!

 

Despise is interesting.

How do you feel about Louis, Tyson, Monzon, Duran, Holyfield, Ayala, SRR, SRL, B-Hop, Toney, Benn Snr and Jnr, and Mayweather Jnr?

 

No, it wasn’t at all a long way to explain my position re the specific enquiry - which I had already clearly explained in at least one previous post at any rate.

My last post also included address of a number of other relevant aspects also which hadn’t been equally addressed and/or acknowledged.

I never said or implied that Liston falling back down was “legit” in the sense of Liston still being sufficiently hurt for that to happen.

I already explained and re-explained my rationale as to why I think Liston “allowed” himself to fall back down. Not sure why there is still any confusion re same.

Again, all speculations otherwise put aside, both Ali and Walcott clearly broke the rules while Liston clearly did not - yet he somehow found himself deemed knocked out without a due count.

 

Ok. So your position is that he faked an attempt to rise and then rolled over acting like he was hurt just because Ali was fast approaching him? I missed that among all the rest you wrote.

Watching the footage again I don't see Ali fast approaching him, and I also fail to see the logic in Liston acting like he was hurt even if he Ali had been approaching him. I'm instead going for the simplest explanation. If someone acts like he's too hurt to rise and beat the count, he does so because he wants others to believe he's too hurt to rise and beat the count.

If he wants to rise but doesn't dare to because the actions of the other fighter, he makes it clear that the other fighter is the reason for him not rising. He doesn't pretend he wants to rise, but is too groggy to succeed. That would make zero sense.

This takes no blame away from Ali and Walcott for their actions, but for me it's the most logical conlusion of Liston's own.

 

Point on the doll where Ali hurt you …