The most unjust victory ever given to Ali

Re>Ali-Liston II, which was an absolute cluster f***, my .02 and I’m standing by it, the knockdown punch was absolutely legit … watch the slo-mo where you see Ali’s muscles ripple from the force of the punch … and stunned Liston although it was nowhere close to putting him out.

And aside from Ali acting like an ass and Walcott stumbling around like he was in a daze, anything Liston did on the floor wasn’t trying to sell a fix. It was him coming to the conclusion … and no one has ever said he was a Mensa candidate when it came to how he drew conclusions … that he had exactly jack caca for Ali that night and effectively saying, “F*** this s**t, I ain’t letting that idiot beat me up again” and tapping out.

Which if you want to hold it against Liston because fighters are supposed to get up and go back at it until they’re carried off on their shields as bloody pulp, fine.

 

Norton himself concedes he gave away the last round, and deserved to lose it (though he maintained he won at least 9-10 rounds regardless( An all time blunder from him and his corner imo.

 

Idk why but I've always thought FOTC Ali would've stopped Norton even if he wouldn't outbox him as effortlessly as he would've pre-exile. Ali stood and traded with Frazier a good amount in that fight. Wrong idea against Frazier but I think it would've been more effective against Norton. I don't see Norton taking anywhere near the shell-shacking Frazier did.

 

Yup I guess Shavers decided to fall back into the ropes and nearly go down on his own accord. Nothing to do with the left hook Ali Landed.

You're clearly an impartial observer.

 

I’ve pointed out before that Ali was swiveling Foreman’s head, repeatedly, in Zaire. He knocked Frazier’s mouthpiece into the cheap seats in Manila.

It’s a complete myth that he was a powder puff puncher. Look at Frazier’s face and head after FOTC. And he won the damn fight.

 

Well, that happens all the time; in boxing and any other sports. Just look at Messi's VIP treatment at the WC.

Sure Ali was heavily favoured but he is not the sole case: Leonard, Tyson, Wlad, Duckelo, Rocky, Gayweather, etc. All of them were the media darlings, the big names and enjoyed of a favorable bias.

Not saying those fighters were not good or great. Just saying that once they became famous champions the machinery started working for them.

Ali's gravy train is the paramount example. By mid 70s Ali had become the beloved people's champion and everybody had a stake on him: promoters, agents, fans, pundits, broadcasters, reporters. Lots of interests pushing on Ali's side.

No surprise then, how there was a clear bias for Ali staying as the Champion; thus he got away with some controvertials
"wins" that wouldnt have been granted in the case of lesser fighers.

Again, not saying that Ali was not great. In my book he is the HW GOAT; but a case can be made that Kenny and others were robbed.

 

Hi JT.
As ever you make sensible and salient points, I am not one for checking weights and such, so I am a tad surprised that the weights pre and post exile were very similar, will take that on board for future discussions, many thanks.
stay safe buddy.
Mike.

 

The answer to your question had already been clearly covered in my previous posts.

I repeated that same answer in just the third paragraph of my reply to you. If you missed the answer and my prior post(s) that’s obviously not my fault.

Now you finally understand. Good.

You can ask a question but I am not confined to just answering that question in my reply nor am I precluded from addressing misnomers in your post (viz Liston didn’t get up “in time”).

There is obvious context to be taken on board, actions/reactions. Liston’s behaviours in Maine didn’t occur in a vacuum but they are being treated as such all too often.

I’ve made the point before that Ali himself later repeated those same behaviours (failing to retire to a neutral corner) against an entirely different opponent - Oscar Bonavena.

Ali zoomed in right by Liston just as he fell again, still failing to stay put, as seen clearly on the film. Liston could’ve easily caught Ali’s initial launch in his peripherals. Ali didn’t launch upon Liston falling back down, Ali was already on his way.

Again, the accent has been heavily on Liston’s behaviours only, not on those of Ali and Walcott’s.

I’ve said this before also: IF Ali wanted Liston to get back up so badly to avert any possible notions of a “fix”, why did he act like a lunatic, refusing to allow Liston due space in order to safely arise? Was Ali “faking”?

Again, all speculations aside, the irrefutable facts are that Ali and Walcott blatantly broke the rules while Liston did not break any rules.

 

All good Mike. I am not even saying you are wrong, it's up in the air. On a side note, I often read that Ali wasn't big enough and strong enough to beat Frazier pre-exile. I always disagree. Just because he didn't need to show similar feats of strength and endurance doesn't mean he didn't possess it. We are talking about 3 pounds of difference with pre-exile being younger and, you'd think, fitter. He'd take it alright, if need be.

 

Yeah, Ali wasn’t a powder puff puncher - plenty of examples to uphold in evidence.

I think it’s the apparent anomalies - fights in which one might’ve thought Ali’s punch would’ve been more effective - that detract from the perception of Ali’s averaged power.

Part of the answer to those anomalies may be Ali’s chronically bad hands which he expressly stated he didn’t have going into the Foreman fight.

 

I really like Ali’s punching display in the first Chuvalo fight. I think Ali was at his highest pre exile weight for that fight - 214 1/2 lbs?

Ali was really thumping George but that fact might’ve been diluted due to Chuvalo’s amazing chin. Still, I saw moments when I think he really hurt Chuvalo and had him backing up.

I can’t readily recall Ali’s weight for the 72 rematch but again he laid some decent power shots on Chuvalo and George’s reactions weren’t completely impervious in their nature. It’s a terrific fight but perhaps unfairly less heralded than some of Ali’s other post exile successes.

Perhaps after seeing Foreman stop a more jaded Chuvalo Ali thought he might have a chance of doing same? Of course Foreman was a different animal altogether, his power being sublime.

I think Ali also thought he had a chance of stopping Frazier in their rubber - he certainly was punching very purposefully during the opening 4 rounds or so and he did hurt Joe - but it was Joe and no matter the context, he would never yield to Ali so easily.

 

Good points, and I think Ali absolutely believed he could and would stop Joe in Manilla. (And, ultimately, he did.)

 

I think Norton always maintained that he won fights 1 and 3 and that 2 could’ve gone either way.

He said he should’ve tried to win round 15 of the rubber because had he won that round he would’ve officially beaten Ali by majority decision on the scorecards.

Aside from that, without accounting for judging bias, I think Norton believed that he clearly won the fight.

Don’t know why Ken chose to play it safe in round 15 - in all the rounds they had boxed previously, Ali had never hurt Ken sufficiently for a final round loss by KO to be of any real concern.

 

Thanks. Kinda perhaps like SRL thinking that a that a that much worn torn Tommy Hearns was going to be an easy mark in their rematch. Like Frazier, Tommy had other ideas.

 

Pretty sure that Ray has been consistently on record from the time of the Hearns rematch and ever since that everyone was telling him Tommy was shopworn and ready for the taking and he kept telling them ‘you don’t know him, he’ll be primed and ready for me.’

He has also consistently admitted that Hearns deserved the decision in the rematch.