If you count the cruiser opponents as heavies (which they would have been in the past) then he is certainly top 10
Have to keep on reminding y'all Usyk didn't turn pro until he was 4 months shy of turning 27 and he didn't win his first world title(s) at HW until he was 4 months shy of turning 35 so not only did he leave an absolutely enormous chunk of his prime and physical prime years in the unpaid ranks (and he's a slick boxer who relies on speed, agility, his legs, reflexes, and reaction times all of which decline with age) but he was already past his prime during his HW reign And he was 37 when he became undisputed the first time at HW and 38 the 2nd time and the decline in his speed, agility, fluidity, reaction times, reflexes and even his accuracy has been crystal clear to see for a long time Let's not forget that according to all but an extremely tiny few of us he stood no chance whatsoever of even winning one belt at HW and beating these giants, let alone becoming undisputed or undisputed x 2 in their backyards and on the road and the greatest HW of his generation. The overwhelming general consensus was these giants were way too big and were going to knock him the beep out and that consensus was also when he was down at CW years before he even moved up to HW and actually still in his prime So they gave him no chance in his prime and not only did he prove them badly wrong he did so when he was almost 35 to 38 when past his prime And even more impressive not only didn't any of these giants knock him out when he was almost 35-39 but they couldn't even knock him down despite all of them being way bigger than him and in all his HW title fights being younger or much younger than him too In fact, he's knocked out/stopped 2 of the giants he's fought when he was 38 and 39 y/o when long past his prime, also knocked out 1 of those 2 (Dubois) when he was 36, but he should have a KO win over one of the other giants too and the only reason he doesn't is because the ref dived in to save them from a certain, and it was categorically certain, KO loss And he's dropped, stopped or hurt everyone he's fought at HW, hurt them all worse or much worse than they've hurt him, in fact, and he hasn't been badly hurt by any of them or even close to going down from a head shot or on even slightly wobbly legs The best they can come up with is Belly cracking him with a big uppercut but that doesn't even come close to being hurt like every other HW great in history has been and I'm talking in their prime, by smaller or much smaller fighters or ones their size, and even by low level or lower level fighters too and he was 37 then, giving away huge physical advantages including just under 40lbs in weight, 7'' in reach, and what like 5'' in height if Belly isn't as tall as he's listed as He wasn't remotely close going down or even slightly discombobulatized. His legs were absolutely fine he just backed off because it was a physically painful shot And speaking of age what do you think even the Usyk of a year or two ago would do to these 36 and 37 y/o respectively versions of AJ and Belly, let alone a prime Usyk? You think either is lasting thee distance vs him? Hell, even the near 35 y/o version of AJ who lost to Dubois, the same age as Usyk was in the first AJ fight, wouldn't last the distance vs the Usyk of a year or 2 ago And nor would the 37 y/o version of Belly who fought Mak. Usyk was 37 for both Belly fights If he didn't have such a great chin which has masked his decline and prevented him from losing when the vast vast majority of others his age and size would've he would've come unstuck already. Even against Rico who absolutely dwarfed him he took some sickening neck twisting really loud thumping shots which should 've by rights dropped him heavily or had him wobbling all around the ring if not knocked him out
And let's not also forget that they cite his lack of depth at HW for H2H match ups debates too whilst ignoring he didn't turn pro until almost 27 or win his first world title at HW until almost 35 and that he's the 4th oldest HW champion of all time, 3rd oldest unified one, the oldest undisputed HW champ ever, and that only 2 HWs in history have won a HW world title fight at his age or older and they were both iron-chinned career HWs who weighed 240-250lbs + with extremely high KO% (89% and 91%) And whilst ignoring the fact that every fighter he's fought as a pro would be a HW by the old standard and in the eras of many of his fellow HW greats. In fact, the CWs he's fought were the same size or bigger as the vast majority of the HWs they fought and bigger or much bigger than many of the HWs they fought Again, the 2nd smallest HW Usyk fought in 9 fights at HW would be the 2nd biggest HW Ali ever fought in 61 fights at HW and this is thee biggest guy Ali fought at HW and he was 6'3'' with a 76'' reach and he was way heavier than he'd been in years, six years, over 20lbs heavier than he'd been in 4 years, and he retired 2 fights later This content is protected And this is the smallest HW Usyk has ever fought Dubois in the first fight and Dubois was a rock solid and ripped 10lbs heavier in the rematch than he was in this fight This content is protected and he was a rock sold 8lbs heavier for his subsequent fight after losing to Usyk for the 2nd time so he's a huge guy This content is protected And when Usyk fought in the WSB at SHW he was facing giants too and he was way smaller back then than he has been in all his pro fights at HW Nistor 233lbs Modugno 277lbs Majidov 235lbs Joyce 238lbs Brechlin 263lbs Fa 246lbs The smallest HW or SHW Usyk has ever fought in 15 fights at HW and SHW weighed 233lbs and he has fought 2 opponents in his entire career who weighed less than 198 and they weighed 195 and 193 respectively Many of the HWs All and Louis and co fought in their eras weighed in the 180s and even some in the 170s Ali who was very often the bigger man or much bigger man and ad roughly 16 fights vs opponents who weighed less than 193 and roughly 24 fights vs ones less than 198, including many in the 180s and even some in the 170s So roughly 39% of his fights were against opponents who weighed less than the 2nd smallest guy Usyk has fought at CW and 26% of them smaller than the smallest fighter Usyk fought at CW And 1.6% of his fights were vs fighters bigger than the 2nd smallest HW Usyk has ever fought But HWs by the old standard are actual HWs despite being much or smaller or roughly the same size as CWs of this era And Usyk fighting nothing but 233-280lb HW giants in his combined 15 fights at HW in the pros and WSB (which is way more than the HW greats and HWs of the other eras I mentioned ever fought) is the same as beating much or much smaller than you HWs who weighed in the 170s and 180s And yes Usyk beating some of those way bigger SHWs in the WSB under the 10-point must system over 5 rounds w/o headguards is far more impressive than beating 20-30 bums as a full pro and 170-190 bums smaller or much smaller than him like many of the HW greats did. Padding your record with 20-30 bums, journeymen, and leprechauns much smaller than you is further proof of your HW greatness
You moved the goalpost. We went from the fighter dominating the division being non-American to all the top contenders needing to be non-American.
Again goalposts are being moved. We went from "boxing experts" to "American media" There's overlap but those are not the exact same thing. EDIT: And even if I ignore this goalpost shift, You're telling me the America media didn't care about the Barrera, Morales and Pacquiao era featherweight division? That's an era that was 1) Thought of as strong despite not being dominated by an American 2) Got America media attention despite being below welterweight. Don't move the goalposts if you're still going to miss both shots!
Deemed HWs by the old standard This content is protected New standard Both the same, right? This content is protected This content is protected
Disagree about your amateur point. I understand what you are saying about the amateurs not being included in the accomplishments of professional boxing, but amateur fights absolutely have a lot to do with pro success. Why do you think Usyk was such a great fighter? Because he fought 350 times! Practice makes perfect, right? The amateurs are a perfect training ground to develop your skills, style, and strategy. If you lose a fight in the amateurs its not the end of the world, but if you lose a fight in the pros you are almost forced to think about hanging them up. Granted, it is not a guaranteed telltale sign if you do well in the amateurs you will do well in the pros, but it's just like any other amateur / college sport. The career (including the amateurs) should be looked at in totality.
you can't claim GOAT and simultaneously acknowledge sub par opposition. it's ****ing moronic. please. i know you get wood watching cal beat up lacey. you're still pissed that we seceded, but cmon, fam...
Maybe reread that post. "People who haven't become undisputed generally aren't going to be people who cleared their division" is not the same sentence as "All undisputed champions have by default cleared their division." If it helps you understand the difference between those sentences, being undisputed is a necessary but not sufficient condition for having cleared the division.