Which Heavyweight Is Possibly Overrated Because Of Nostalgia?

This obsession with close decisions when he was way past his prime confounds me a bit. The 76-77 Ali was a far cry from the 66-67 one. so how much would it really have mattered if he lost a close decision to a fighter who himself would lose a close decision to a prime Holmes when two years older? The onset of Parkinson's had quite likely started at this point. How much would a close loss to someone like Norton really have mattered?

And the Shavers win isn't very controversial for most. Close and very hard won, yes, but not that controversial. So if Ali had lost that one, I think most would have felt he was hard done by. And Ali was even further gone at this point. A past it and likely diseased fighter loses controversially to a top 5 contender, by many seen as the hardest punncher ever... Do you actually think that this would be held much against him? That seems like strange belief to me.

Generally, losses that fighters had towards the end of their careers, when they were far from what they had been, aren't much held against them even if they were KO'd or lost clear decision. Why would a couple of close decision losses, that many would disagree with, be held against Ali at that point?

 

Washed Ali was still game.

 

I would think even if some those decisions Ali would still be ranked by most as a top 2 heavyweight. It might sway the debate with Joe Louis who most have a close 2nd however but even then not sure.

 

I don't even think about Joe's fight with Rocky.

 

It would likely be Ali today. In 1975, he was hovering near the bottom of the top 10; back then, the nostalgia was for the likes of Jim Jeffries, Jack Johnson, and Jack Dempsey—names no one remembers anymore, so they aren't overrated, as none of them rank above Ali, Frazier, Liston, or Marciano. Today, Ali is firmly established as number one—a view I share—though he is often overrated in fantasy matchups, and his record, while the most distinguished in history, has its flaws. He lost the most important fight of his career: the FOTC. He got the Sonny Liston fight handed to him, beat Foreman under extraordinary circumstances, and benefited from clear referee bias on several occasions; meanwhile, his losses to Spinks and Holmes are blithely dismissed due to his Parkinson’s diagnosis, which didn't come until 1985.
I believe Ali faced an all-time great (ATG) in their prime only twice: Larry Holmes in 1980 and Joe Frazier in 1971. One could make a case for the second Norton fight, but Ken rarely cracks the top 10. Everything is weighed in Ali's favor—the three-year hiatus, the Parkinson's—yet Frazier aged faster than he did, and Foreman did him a huge favor by taking out both Norton and Frazier. The stars aligned perfectly for Muhammad in every respect, and he capitalized on it.
And we all cherish the FOTC, the Rumble in the Jungle, and the Thrilla in Manila

 

Why is it Usyk fans, though? I am an Usyk nut and routinely say that the only acceptable picks for heavyweight GOAT are Ali, or alternatively, Louis.

Ali's resume is so deep that his 3rd stringers would be a great title reign for most guys.

 

The team of Mahlon R. DeLong, M.D., a professor emeritus of neurology at the Emory University School of Medicine; Michael S. Okun, M.D., chair of neurology at the University of Florida and executive director of the Norman Fixel Institute for Neurological Diseases at UF Health; and Helen Mayberg, M.D., a professor of neurology and psychiatry at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai, drew their conclusions from physical examinations and PET imaging from 1995 until Ali’s death.

“This is the first time that a group of physicians who continuously evaluated him over the years has spoken on the record,” Okun said. “He’s such an important part of history, not just American history but world history, and he’s been so iconic and so influential. I think it’s important for people to understand what the actual facts of the medical condition were from the doctors who examined him.”

In the new viewpoint piece, they write: “Here, we add this missing information to the archives of history. The main point of our report is that Muhammad Ali indeed had young-onset levodopa-responsive Parkinson disease with an emergence during the mid-phase of his boxing career.”

https://mbi.ufl.edu/2022/10/24/neur...de-evidence-for-primary-parkinsons-diagnosis/


Prior to his 1980 fight against Larry Holmes, Muhammad Ali was evaluated at the Mayo Clinic. During this neurological examination, he struggled with and effectively "failed" three specific coordination and motor tests:

• Finger-to-Nose Test: He showed a slight degree of missing when attempting to touch his finger to his nose.
• Muscular Coordination: He had difficulty coordinating the muscles used in speaking.
• Agility and Balance: He was unable to hop on one foot with the expected agility.

A study to be released Wednesday of Muhammad Ali's public speaking from 1968 to '81 found that when he was in his early to mid-30s, he began exhibiting signs of slowed and slurred speech, several years before he was diagnosed with Parkinson's syndrome at age 42.

Led by Arizona State University speech scientists Visar Berisha and Julie Liss, the analysis determined that the rate of syllables per second at which Ali spoke slowed by 26 percent from age 26 to 39. He was slurring his words by 1978 -- three years before his retirement from boxing and six years before his Parkinson's diagnosis.

...

https://www.espn.com/boxing/story/_...y-reveals-early-indications-parkinson-disease

Ali was showing clinically significant neurological deficits long before he retired.

 

How was George Foreman not in his prime?

And how many greats actually face any other great in their prime without losing?

 

Cooper actually did pretty well in the rematch IMO before Ali damaged his face again. But it doesn't hurt Ali too much as he still won both fights by stoppage of course.

 

All the available medical evidence suggests Ali was damaged to a clinically significant extent, that went well beyond the physiological changes we would expect from an aging athlete, long before he hung up the gloves for good. (MY CHARACTERIZATION)

According to the physicians with probably the best longitudinal medical evidence available, the disease that eventually became unmistakable as Parkinson’s was already emerging while Ali was still an active, championship-level boxer. (CHAT GPT)

 

Catch I like Usyk but some of the Usyk fans on this forum are unbearable TBH.

I'm not including you with this group BTW but there is alot of mental gymnastics I see people using for Usyk on here.

And they discredit past fighters aswell to make Usyk look better.

Like I see Usyk fans discrediting Ali all the time saying stuff like.....

"Ali lost to Spinks who wasn't very good and Usyk is older than Ali was vs Spinks and is still great now sowhats excuse for Ali ?"

Garbage like that with 0 context applied.

Someone like Ali was fighting 3 times a year he'd been in 15 round wars and taken alot of damage in his 2nd career and his opposition was insane TBH.

Usyk for past 6 years has been averaging 1 fight per year so their scheduling in their 30s was polar opposites.

If Ali had been fighting once a year wouldn't he logically be fresher aswell ?

And another example is because Usyk recently struggled against a kickboxer again all these mental gymnastics to big up Rico now. Even though most people were shaming this fight and thought it would be a joke of a fight including Usyk's fans.

Usyk just came in too heavy was sluggish and underestimated his opponent its as simple as that.

Ali done the samething vs Young came in too heavy and was very poor.

I'm not saying it tarnishes Usyk's legacy for having 1 bad night at the office. But then we don't need all the other mental gymnastics to go along with it either.

And that's my main issue it's some of the Usyk fans on here not Usyk himself who seems like a decent bloke. And is a throwback to the older generation of Heavyweights relying on his skills rather than his size.

 

I see what you are saying about most of this. The only thing that I will say though is that I excuse the Rico fight because I am on record saying beforehand that I thought it would be one of Usyk's toughest. That is because of my decades of watching boxing and seeing kickboxers adapt simplified styles that don't make them great in the long run, but fluster and confuse up front. I will never forget Troy Dorsey throwing over a thousand punches and landing about 700. They stand up too straight...the pitty-pat with some of it...but they put the pressure, and it works to an extent, especially against boxers.

I am pretty obnoxious in how many times I have reprinted this, but it is how I saw it beforehand, and I think I pretty much hit it:

As for Ali...GOAT. No debate, except maybe Louis. Ali just beat the most number of great fighters in great fights, and that is all there is to say. I don't think anyone will come close.

 

TBH I don't really watch combat sports outside of boxing.

So I wasn't that knowledgeable on Rico honestly.

I do know past kickboxers have had success in boxing Dorsey is a good example and I believe Cobb was a kickboxer aswell wasn't he ?

Algeiri wasn't a bad boxer either.

It's just when Usyk has been winning the way he has it seemed pretty shocking to me to see him look so sluggish.

What gave me some pause though which I mentioned to you in the other thread.

Is that Usyk coming in at a career high weight made me a bit worried and it turns out my fears were well justified.

Usyk noticeably had a bit of belly and IMO he did underestimate Rico.

I still think if they rematched and Usyk got his weight down to about 223. He'd get Rico out of there within 6 rounds especially now he knows Rico's weakness is the uppercut.

It's just some of the Usyk glaze gets a bit unbearable at times Catch ngl.

Not that I'm saying his fans can't appreciate him.

But I don't like when past fighters are discredited to make Usyk look better that's my major issue.

And then people accuse you of being a hate and I don't like it.

I don't even dislike Usyk if I'm being honest I'm not a big fan of Heavyweights now because I think they're too big and I appreciate the smaller Heavyweights more.

So Usyk I can appreciate because he's more of a throwback.

Now it looks like Usyk's career is finished I'll be rooting for Itauma because again his skills look like a throwback to the older era.

Itauma isn't big and lumbering his fast, explosive, and athletic.

I just hope he isn't packing glass.

 

Now, I'm gonna say this as I hurriedly leave the room...I have a cab with its engine running ready to whisk me away after lobbing this grenade...

...Dempsey...?

His defeat of Willard was notable because of the size difference and there was a huge skill disparity between the big farmer and Manassa Jack. Life and death with Firpo. His best win is likely Capentier, a much smaller man. Miske, Brennan, Gibbons, Starkey...were they really all that? And the best fighter he fought beat him twice.

For me, Gene was the real deal, Carpentier was a very good fighter but was the naturally smaller man even though Heavies were smaller back then. I'm not sure Dempsey's record matches his cultural significance?

 

If Louis had lost the decisionon to Walcott, it wouldn't make any difterence to my ranking of him.

And Lous probably had more left at 34 than Ali did.

Ali was in his mid 30's, had had some of the toughest fights in boxing history and quite likely was in the early stages of Parkinson's. And it's very clear to the eye that he was far from the fighter he had been in his prime. Close decision losses to world level fighters for someone at that stage makes no difference to me.

I mean, most of us rank Charles near the absolute top p4p and his record had started to become very spotty at that stage, but you don't see those results come up in every thread about his standing. In fact, they hardly ever do.

But for Ali, a few decisions (one of which isn't even controversial for most) about ten years after what's typically seen as the end of his prime are always brought up, without a fail. Not much nostalgia there.