Which Heavyweight Is Possibly Overrated Because Of Nostalgia?

He was out of The Ring Top 10 at the time.

 

Thanks for your reply.

If it can be said that Earnie appeared to unduly delay his follow up I could get on board with the explanation that he was being mindful not to go too hard, too early, lest he punch himself out in futility.

That possible explanation returns me to how well paced Shavers was over the 15 round distance - much different to previous versions of Earnie who, after swinging for the fences, often gassed well before time.

On the other side of the coin, when Ali retreated to the ropes shortly after being wobbled, a measured and precise Shavers coolly and calmly punched through Ali’s attempt to play the rope a dope.

I don’t recall any opponent who gave Ali cause to get off the ropes as quickly as he did against Shavers.

Aside from contentions as to who won, it was a great performance from Earnie any which way.

One last thing, and I don’t take quotes as evidence in their own right, I’m pretty sure that Shavers originally felt that he won the fight but he later said that he agreed that Ali won.

In a way, Shavers’ apparent switch in his opinion illustrates the value (or lack thereof) of such quotes.

As it so happened, there were also a few of Shavers’ opponents who, even though they had already faced Earnie, originally nominated other opponents as the hardest puncher they had ever faced only to later alter their opinion to choose Earnie instead.

 

I never said he was a big oaf. I in fact admitted he was a solid contender.

What I did say is that I imagine that had he lost to Marciano, there would be those who reduce him to being "not that good anyway" and "a big oaf who lost to light heavyweights". And that his reputation gets a big boost from those people who elevate him because he was a Liston opponent and Liston lost to Ali.

In fact, I remember a discussion I had on a forum and it was about Marciano and of course, he talked about how Marciano only beat tiny, light heavyweights but Liston beat skilled giants like Nino Valdes. I pointed out that one of those tiny, light heavyweights in fact did beat Valdez and did it while he was younger and Liston beat an older version. Then he had nothing to say

 

That 2001 win by Goran, is one of the best sporting memories of my entire life.

I will never forget it.

I was almost in tears at the end.

 

Then came the domination of the big 3.

 

Your scorecard says you can't score a fight unbiased or objectively when you dislike a fighter.

And for the millionth time they must of been decent rounds if you thought 7 rounds could be even.

That's 7 rounds that could be scored either way.

That's what an even round means "debatable" when you can't split a round between two fighters.

It's just you dishonestly try and claim you're being objective when your not.

That's why when Ali had his best period in the fight between rounds 10-15. You only scored 1 round for Ali and all the other rounds as even, so you could have the widest possible scorecard for Shavers a clear sign of agenda on your part.

Yes there is and your scoring between rounds 10-15 clearly shows that.

Yes your assessment is to score every decent or good Ali round as even to conjure up a wide scorecard for Shavers congrats.

An amazing assessment of being biased and not objective.

Actually you didn't.

Yeah you just to happen to score every objectively good or decent round for Ali as even.

And came up with a ridiculous scorecard of Ali winning 3 rounds.

You just basically agreed with me ? do you not realize that.

You thought neither did enough to edge those even rounds meaning they are hotly debated rounds in your mind ? hello ? that's what i've been saying ?

The issue is that no way any sane or objective scorer would only see Ali winning only 3 rounds.

So clearly it's an issue with your scorecard primarily your scoring between rounds 10-15. Which is when Ali really woke up and start doing his best work yet you see only 1 round for Ali.

So yes clearly there is an agenda here that's why you scored all of Ali's best rounds down the stretch as even no ifs or buts about it.

Give up your hating and score a fight objectively.

It's not the fact you don't have the same view as me the issue is you don't have the same view as anyone do you not realize that ?

Do the judges, ringside scorers, or any fans scorecards primarily on this forum let's just say. Have a scorecard remotely close to yours with Ali only winning 3 rounds ?

And there's your answer that it's a "you" issue it's as simple as that.

Having a scorecard of Shavers edging the fight is totally reasonable.

But having a scorecard of where you clearly had an agenda scoring Ali's best rounds as even so you could have a wide scorecard for Shavers. Because you dislike Ali which you've already admitted and clearly you can't score this fight objectively.

And that's where the issue lies.

And Holmes won a similar type round on all 3 judges scorecards in 15th round against Norton for his late rally no different.

Also i never said Ali clearly won the round but it's certainly a debatable round, that Ali definitely could've won and many people have scored it for him and see it as a vital round in a close fight for his late rally.

And why is there little chance of Ali stopping Shavers ? Shavers was totally gassed and had nothing left. Another 30 seconds i could easily see Shavers visiting the canvas.

Ali did more damage in the round and badly hurt his opponent alot of scorers would see that as a round for Ali.

 

I'm not sure Angelo tried too hard,I think he should have walked away a lot earlier, as Pacheco did.

 

Agreed Ali also didnt really out fight Frazier in any of their 3 fights either. He lost the first, Was allowed to hold Frazier all night long in the 2nd and actually came out of the 'Thrilla in Manila" Worse off than Frazier did and was on the verge of quitting himself when Fraziers corner pulled him out. Clearly lost 2 of the fights against Norton (possibly all 3) Cheated to beat Cooper and lost to Shavers

 

He lost the first Frazier fight


Re: The holding in Ali-Frazier 2


"Fraziers' people complained that it [Ali's holding behind the head] kept Joe from working on the inside. And it's true; Ali was very strong. He'd pull guys down by the back of the neck and no one was strong enough to pull back. If you let a guy do that all night it wears you down. But I couldn't do anything because it was like Joe was happy laying on Ali's chest, waiting for me to break them apart. That's the way it was the whole fight. Joe would come in, punching, bobbing, weaving. He'd score one or two shots, and then just lay there in the clinch like he was resting. All he had to do was bend at the knees. Get down low so Ali can't hold anymore. He's shorter than Ali, so Ali can't hold him beyond a certain point. And once Joe's free, he'd be in position to come up punching. His own corner kept telling him to do that, but it seemed like he was content to be in a clinch."


-Tony Perez- Referee for Ali-Frazier 2


Re Ali- Frazier 3

Padilla ( Carlos Padilla - Referee for Ali- Frazier 3) said that even if Futch hadn’t told him to do so, he probably would have called the fight. “Because Frazier was no more.”


https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2025/10/ali-frazier-thrilla-in-manila-history/683972/?gift=QZgsIxhSIWQAj9iMCK3npZEs7_7XTUJr2l1ISveeifI&utm_source=email&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=social

Re- Clay (Ali-Cooper 1)

But the gap between rounds four and five - the moment of the torn glove incident - was, precisely, one minute and six seconds

In other words, only six seconds more than all the other intervals.


https://www.bbc.com/news/16985467

Re: Ali- Shavers

• Referee: Johnny LoBianco 9-5
• Judge: Tony Castellano 9-6
• Judge: Eva Shain 9-6

• Unofficial AP scorecard: 10-5 Ali
• Unofficial UPI scorecard: 8-6-1 Ali

 

Almost Forgot

Re: Ali- Norton 2

• Referee: Dick Young 7-5
• Judge: John Thomas 6-5
• Judge: George Latka 5-6

• Unofficial AP scorecard: 6-5 Norton
• Unofficial UPI scorecard: 9-2 Ali
• Unofficial LB Independent scorecard: 8-4 Ali
• Unofficial Pasadena Star-News scorecards (2 reporters covering the fight): 7-5 Norton and 7-5 Ali
• Unofficial ringside poll of sportswriters: 8 scored it for Ali, 6 scored it for Norton, and 1 scored it even

Re:Ali- Norton 3

• Referee: Arthur Mercante 6-8
• Judge: Harold Lederman 7-8
• Judge: Barney Smith 7-8

• Unofficial AP scorecard: 9-6 Ali; unofficial UPI scorecard: 8-7 Norton.

Those fans and reporters who weren’t in tears were shaking with anger. The outcry over the decision was such that CBS organized a panel of celebrity judges to score the bout as they watched the replay a week later.

Schuyler thought CBS’ idea was fatally flawed.

"It’s impossible to score a fight in which you already know the result," he said.

For the record, Schuyler scored the bout 9-6 Ali, and he did so without an ounce of doubt or regret.

"I don’t know what the controversy was about because I couldn’t see any," he declared. "Ali took the fight and Norton didn’t. Close? Yes. But close doesn’t count except in quakes. I’ve never, ever thought over the years that Norton might have won the fight. From where I sat, Ali dictated the pace with his jab and right hand. It was an even fight after eight rounds and then Ali took charge. Norton came forward, but you don’t get points just for coming forward. It was Ali’s fight and I have no qualms about the decision or the way I scored it."

Ed Schuyler- AP Beat Writer and IBHOF inductee

 

The gap wasn't the problem, the smelling salts were, they were illegal back then.

 

My scorecard just shows my assessment of the fight, nothing more.

They were just rounds when both of them pretty much didn't do **** or did very little. That is not what I'd call decent.

Nobody is forcing me or a ref for that matter to score them rounds for any particular boxer.
In case you are this clueless, boxing rounds can technically be scored even as a 10-10 score.

Mate, at this point I'm starting to think you're ******ed or something.
I just scored the fight the way I saw it. There is no agenda whatsoever, just my evaluation of it. I had no way of knowing beforehand how many rounds I was gonna give to each boxer.

Given that I've scored 7 rounds even, and there are only 8 rounds left, there's nothing insane one bit about only giving them 3 to Ali. Shavers has 5, so just 2 more.
If I would have given Shavers 12 rounds and Ali 3 rounds, then yes, your statement might hold value. Otherwise, it doesn't mean ****.

I did do that, you just can't accept my assessment and you keep whinning like a 12 year old.

I don't have to have the same view as others, this is MY assessment, not someone else's.

Almost all of them rarely score rounds even like me, they just give them to one boxer or the other.
If they scored certain rounds (that neither boxer really dominated) even, they way I do, those who scored the fight for Shavers would probably have Ali winning just 3 or 4.
And this fight isn't an exception/rarity when it comes to me scoring rounds even. I do that often when I feel neither boxer really dominated the other.

Scoring 7 rounds even gives me a score of 5 to 3 for Shavers. There's nothing wide about this scorecard.

My love or hate for a boxer has never impeded me from scoring a fight fairly.
The problem lies with you Ali fanboys who can't accept other people's opinions.

So did Leonard vs Hagler by doing tappy taps at the end of the rounds. It does not mean I have to agree with the judge's decision.

Ali was gassed too, and I could easily see him not having enough energy to keep punching for another 30 seconds.

 

Usyk is listed as being 6.3. And since moving to HW, he's usually weighed between 220 and 227 lbs.

Foreman was 6'3.5 - 6.4, so just half an inch to and inch taller. And in his first career, he weighed between 220 and 225 lbs.
He was 218 vs Frazier I, 220 vs Ali, 224 vs Frazier II, 220 vs Lyle. The only time he exceed that was vs Young, when he weighed 229 lbs.
So he's almost the same weight as Usyk.
And from what I've seen on video, Usyk looks to have the larger frame, he seems/looks wider. I don't know about their bones.

I have Liston in my top 10 all time. HW's I mean.

 

Outside the top 10.
I have the following boxers ahead of Foreman: Tyson, Lewis, Usyk, Holmes, Fury, Holyfield, Ali, Bowe, Liston, Wlad, Vitali.

 

Lewis is clearly no. 1, but who do you have as 2nd ?